Photo Happy Hour

Do you need a mentor?

May 05, 2020 Michael Mowbray, Carl Caylor, Dan Frievalt Season 1 Episode 10
Photo Happy Hour
Do you need a mentor?
Show Notes Transcript

How can you improve your photography and business skills rapidly?  Find a mentor. Or should we say, find a good mentor that is specific to what you want to learn. In this episode the guys talk about the benefits of mentors...both in finding one or more for yourself and also as being a mentor to others. Along the way Dan proposes the benefits of margaritas as a morning smoothie replacement. Michael gives tips on consecrating PopTarts for "recliner church". And Carl waxes poetic about "You've Got Mail". Informative and entertaining, grab your favorite beverage and press "play".  And don't forget to subscribe!

Your Hosts:
Michael Mowbray, M. Photog., Cr., owns Beautiful Portraits by Michael in DeForest (Madison) Wisconsin and also owns MoLight. Learn more at:
www.beautifulportraits.com
www.gomolight.com

Dan Frievalt, M.Photog., M. Artist, Cr., owns Frievalt Photography in DePere (Green Bay) Wisconsin and also runs Seniors Unlocked. Learn more at
www.frievaltphotography.com
store.seniorsunlocked.com

Carl Caylor, M. Photog., Cr., ASP-Fellow, Kodak Alaris Mentor, owns Photo Images by Carl in Iron Mountain, Michigan and also runs Carl's Coaching Corner.  Learn more at:
www.photoimagesbycarl.net
www.ccphotocoach.com

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spk_0:   0:06
recorded live from that old Winnebago parked in your neighbor's front yard. What the hell, dude? It's the photo. Happy our podcast. Hey, and welcome, everybody. I'm your photo happy or bartender Michael Mowbray. I'm serving a straight of shot of smooth photography. Know how today joining me behind the bar or Dan Free Vault and Carl Kehler say, Hey, guys.

spk_1:   0:31
Hey, guys. Hey, what's up? I just want to say that I've been starting each day with a smoothie in a workout. I feel great. And if you know what a smoothie in a workout is, it's basically a margarita. And then I fall down the steps. You go. That's That's how I started my day. So

spk_0:   0:49
I've been starting the day with a pop tart in a gallon. A call, coffee. So about records, champions. So what do you guys drinking today?

spk_2:   0:59
Take a guest. What do you think I'm drinking Tennessee whiskey? No, I am drinking. Must go Muli today.

spk_0:   1:06
Oh, I didn't see your cup. I would have known if I'd seen the cover car.

spk_1:   1:10
It's got the fancy copper cup. I'm back to the whiskey again. It was good last week, so

spk_0:   1:16
yeah, I thought We had a good episode last week, and I think we're all on whiskey. So I think there is a good pattern going to get Teoh here. Let me hand you some of mine. I just opened bottle. It's half way ever. Lord,

spk_1:   1:29
you handed over. Don't hit the door on your way out car. Yeah, right. Yeah, that door again.

spk_0:   1:37
This stuff's got a pretty,

spk_2:   1:38
isn't it? Is pretty, Uh wow. Dancing. That's the coolest part of drinking is the bottles. Well, now it's not, but what they are doing some remarkable

spk_0:   1:50
Collect him for the bottles. OK, I get it. Well, case, you're just joining us for the first time or the fifth time. They don't quite get with the premises. Ah, were three professional photographers who have been around for a little bit. And every week we get together and we have some drinks and we talk about photography. And the more we drink, the more we know and the more knowledge we lay down. And we have a topic every week. And this week we're talking about mentoring both, um, how we mentor and maybe mentors that we've had in the past. And I'm going to pass the baton and let you guys talk. And I'm just going to drink like this in a pissy mood today. Today screw U. S. P. A and P p p. Beer. So, Dan, Uh oh, my

spk_2:   2:42
gosh. No. You know, mentor mentorships are something I think I find very essential in photography. It's kind of like the old apprenticeship back in the trade days. And I think the trade days are coming back more. We're seeing it up here in our neck of the woods anyway, that, um it used to be that were like killing our kids, you know, do well in high school, go to college, get a good job, because college is gonna give you better job. Well, not necessarily. We need welders. We need cad people. And not not necessarily. Are those fields don't necessarily. And

spk_0:   3:19
you say cad people are cat people. Cad. Okay,

spk_1:   3:23
I said I thought he said cab people like I know you don't deliver by you, but this is a cab. Nowadays we have a here. We've

spk_0:   3:32
got the best. We've got the best educated cabbies in Madison, but they all have doctorates in philosophy.

spk_1:   3:39
But over up by you they show up on like, Ah, horse or a tractor isn't and Carl,

spk_0:   3:44
I think it's going. It's called Goober up. There's a good guy was Iraq. It's a uber, uber, uber, uber uber. But anyway, you

spk_2:   3:57
know, it's it's, I think that, uh, referring to a mentorship Maura's an apprenticeship is probably a better way of going because I see a lot of times, um, people will say, I want a mentor. I want a mentor and then they get talking to somebody, or they choose somebody that's going to help train them. And then all of sudden, other doing is telling him I know, I know. I know, I know. Whereas an apprenticeship you are there, learned there is somebody that you choose that is a craft person, somebody that has been in the field a long time. My something familiar. I mean, yes, there's people like that in photography to that have been around a lot. They've been in business a long time that have seen a lot of different situations that will produce different looks and photography. Maybe instead of saying I know, I know, I know. Let's use this as an apprenticeship and and learn what we can from people. And so I get high school seniors a lot. I come in and they're like So what do you want to do when you get we are high school, All in your view. Photographer. What do I need to do? Where do I got to go to college? Um, don't. And that's my opinion is don't because you can learn a lot more. Uh, not a college for photographer and, in my opinion,

spk_0:   5:15
but more quickly to

spk_2:   5:17
and more quickly, much. Yeah, but But you should learn from a larger people used to it going buddy with somebody or given time and then let that sink. And I go to somebody else and learn from them for a little while and then go to somebody else because we're all artists. Well, that means that we're all have different viewpoints and and strong opinions. What were the other? But how we do things and why we do things. And maybe what? One person's opinion in vision isn't exactly ah what made for you. But you can learn a lot from them both other than negatively. So in my opening, you should have a mentoring. You should have many mentors, Houston. Be wise about it and treated us an apprenticeship that you're learning from instead of always. I know, I know. I know. Which is what we hear. Oh, yeah. Trying to be a mentor. Well,

spk_0:   6:12
even look at, um Yeah, somebody could come to any of the three of us and learn quite a bit. But what if somebody went to Karl and purely learned how to work with natural light? What if somebody went to Dan and learned how to, you know, break outside of the creative box? What if somebody came to me? I have no idea why they would come t o learn advanced sarcasm if any way they could

spk_2:   6:38
buy some nice toys from, you know, like

spk_1:   6:39
last year, all kinds of information. We're teaching, flashing one of external lighting flashing.

spk_0:   6:46
The whole college thing is, I'm a college grad by I didn't get my degree and photography. I wasn't in photography then. I used to teach at the technical school which became Madison College here. I used to teach the portrait photography classes. I still would tell people now not to go. They're part of it is because you screw those guys dio well, that you're not exactly well

spk_1:   7:10
in. Yeah, I want to touch it a two. Because when I get those same questions Hey, I wanna learn photography. Where should I go to college? Whatever. And I say it's okay to go to college. I encourage you go to college, but go to college for business, becomes and then learn photography as an elective or through mentorship. Because you learn so much mawr through hands on the art world and photographers or in the business, doing photography and doing there's totally different photography, portrait photography. Or like some of things you're doing Michael with now. Well, you've been doing it for a while now is the product shots and everything, and then head shot Photography is a whole different animal. So there's so many different niches. Or are we saying niches again? I don't We're back on that, But just say both this able, you know, wedding photography, newborn photography like there's so many different things that you can really like. Focus in on. Which is why I focused on senior photography. So yeah, going to college and learning business. That way, you won't be a starving artist when you become a photographer

spk_2:   8:15
right now, that's something I do say. I said, You know, it's good to have, um, back up so it's safe to say that word. But ah, and you had a good point. I mean, do I keep people from going to college? Absolutely not. I just They don't go, therefore photography, because I can't keep they can't possibly keep up with the technology changes at a university because of all the red tape. You know, they gotta wait for this board and this board in this approval, and by the time they approve something, it's obsolete. In our damning things have changed a little faster our camera bodies or changing or lighting equipment or whatever I said it might be 10 years for them to turn this ship where we need it right now, But I do tell if you go to school again like Dan said business. But I tell him, Take a drama class, take a psychology class, um, understanding, class marketing class and advertising class. Absolutely. Take all those things because the more you understand how people are seen in and, um, uh, enjoying your work, the better you're gonna be for the masses and in business. If you're doing photography as a hobby, you know, do it. Never take whatever you want. But if you don't make money in this and you generate more people because the people of the audience you don't have a product, you

spk_0:   9:39
know one class that nobody ever talks about that I really think people should take is a writing class. Think of all much writing we have to do. As as entrepreneurs and business owners, Benji agrees. Think he writes, your voice on your Web site. Copy does me.

spk_1:   10:05
It's pretty, obviously, as if you've read. Yeah, writing is not my strong suit.

spk_0:   10:10
I was. That was the sarcasm part.

spk_1:   10:13
Yeah, I got I was like, Oh yes, that's a great point, Michael

spk_0:   10:18
E. Think of. I mean, just writing cohesive, coherent e mails that ah, or website copy ad copy any promotional copy and have it be not only easily understood, but you don't have it motivate people to to take action, man, that's that's a rare skill, and that's when you have to learn. Most people have to learn how many people have told you to take a writing class well beyond Dan people talk to you to take a writing class. So nobody

spk_1:   10:51
so, so funny story. Uh, my my mother was ah, teacher's aide and she helped with in in the part of the school with Children with learning disabilities. And but she always said I was her toughest a person. We'd sit down at the kitchen table, induced spelling and grammar and everything, and she's like, You just don't get it. And she was so good at which it was so frustrating for me. She was so good at writing and grammar and spelling, and I just was terrible. And to this day, I'm still terrible. And I was like one of those kids back in day like, Yeah, well, you know, writing. You know, I've got enough to get by who's really gonna need writing today's day and age like texting and email, Facebook messages, Facebook posts. Oh, my gosh, it takes me forever and, um, another little app, which we talked about last week that I use. It has helped me a little bit, is called Graham early, and it really helps fix a lot of my problems. I still have a lot of problems, and it's still you

spk_0:   11:57
know. Oh, it's It's Graham early. I wrote that down wrong. I got Graham Aly. So really, all my text sounds really old. Yeah, well, you are old, you know, everything ends with get off my lawn. You know my

spk_1:   12:11
line and prune juice. Yeah, Or or outsource it again. I look at my weaknesses and how can I, you know, higher for my weaknesses. So I have a copywriter for for thing some things that I need copy for. I hire that out, and that's what they specialize in. And it's such a weight off my shoulders, just like retouching. If I don't have to remove bunch of pimples, I can focus on things that only I could do that things that I am good at instead of taken me 1/2 a day to write on article or an email boom. Or like what Michael said last week of having candy e mails when someone has an inquiry or something, where you can kind of plug in and personalize a few things. But overall, the writing, you know, is cohesive and has good grammar, and, you know, because that's your first impression.

spk_0:   13:07
But I've got a good friend who has made a I don't want number. Guys, go say good second career Out of this might be your fifth or seventh or 13th but Kimberly Anderson out of Milwaukee and a lot of her clientele. She caters to photographers writing blawg posts in promotional copy. And you know this. So there are people, people, people there. People are out there. That's my Grandma Lee again. There are people out there who can do or the whiskey who can do this stuff for you to. All right. So let's let's flip things 180 degrees We've talked a little bit about, you know, going and finding mentors who are good who are mentors for you guys. You

spk_1:   13:47
guys really? I mean,

spk_0:   13:48
really look at you guys, too. So I

spk_1:   13:51
mean, when I when I first got its a mentor,

spk_0:   13:53
how total cyber separate social distancing. Yeah, Okay, that was I was

spk_1:   14:06
No, I mean, when when I first got into this, I mean, I took a week long. My first week long school was with. That was a Petrie haven. And I took one week with Mary Mortensen because she was the person who worked for Miller, and she knew marketing her. She was She was a marketing director for Miller and became a photographer. Miller Beer? Yeah.

spk_0:   14:27
I never knew she worked for Miller. Oh, yeah? How did I know this?

spk_1:   14:31
Yeah, well, you didn't take her classes. Corporate? Evidently. Yeah. And then? And then the second week was with Karl. Because then I wanted to really learn all about lighting, imposing everything. So I looked at the two ends of the spectrum. I wanted to learn business marketing for photography. I had a marketing communications degree, but I really wanted the to know how to market for photography and then really, how to create great images So that that went hand in hand so I could sell great image of cricket, great images to celebrate images. And, Michael, I don't know. I found you at pp a one day you're running through the hall, and you seem kind of fun and goofy. And Mike, I like that. I thought photography is that bad either.

spk_0:   15:15
Wearing closed at the time. Some

spk_2:   15:19
of it

spk_1:   15:19
will you where you were wearing a day per like Pierre.

spk_0:   15:21
Thank you Know I still have my, uh, some things you just can't unsee. That's one of those stories that we probably don't even want to get into. But

spk_1:   15:34
you know that Wisconsin Fun Nights again. Yeah, I mean those that that's years ago when? Since then I mean, there's several, several more. Like Karl said, You know, you pick up a little bit from each person and you know, he said, learn a little bit from this person, this person, that person and I agree. I've also heard certain people say, You know, focusing on three people, you know that you really are connected to their work or their business and and really invest a lot of time, you know? Yeah, you can learn from other people like I conventions a little bit here and there, but you know, really higher. Or spend a week with someone at Texas school or hire them one on one. When you can really personalize your experience and get the most bang for your buck out of that person. Because as creatives, it's easy to be like squirrel squirrel. You know, I taught a lady, we all have that stuff in it, right, and it's like, Oh, that's cool or that school or you know it's easy to go to a convention and go to all the fun classes and all the creative classes. But try and really focus on grabbing a couple of those business classes as well. Or, if you're PP a member, log into there education and, you know, watched the business, you know, and the things or people he has there. What did they have their business services

spk_0:   17:00
cancel out, They call it, but yeah, yeah, where

spk_1:   17:03
they really go through and help you with pricing and setting your You know what your costs of good should be and all the things we don't want to do. I've done it. I don't like to do it. No one likes to do it but it.

spk_0:   17:16
But you know what with some of this stuff when you set it up, the you do it once. Yes, you figure out where the cost of goods are and what your ratio should be, and then you go do all the dirty work once, and then you just manage it from there and just make sure that everything's meeting all these prescribed ratios. Then you'll be golden. But yeah, I like the idea you mentioned I don't think I have ever heard that before. It's fine. Three people and then just get a little bit more in depth with that. I've had the same issue, like after dark was a fabulous conference. But it's one of those things where you're walking by and everything shiny, you know? You know? Ah, Chucky is doing something here. And then, you know, Ben shirts doing something over here. And Kirby kid, he's doing something over Kirby. Or maybe he's doing you get the carpet wear you like. Okay, I got five minutes or I'm gonna go over here Now, I'm gonna go over here now and then You only get just a just a very, very surface level of anything rather than getting in depth. And I think that's a mistake a lot of people make is they don't do the in depth. They don't take that next step. I spend a lot of time ingrained with somebody like a weeklong school or one on one mentoring for a day or two. Um, and I think that's where a lot of people miss out.

spk_2:   18:33
I think you know, it's funny. I just really haven't put this together until now, but I think that's what we're missing nowadays without having the big conventions, like when Wisconsin was in its heyday. We have 600 photographers at R Wisconsin Professional Tigers Association convention, and when you do that, when you're side by side or if you're at after dark your side by side with people, you get to know him a little bit more and, like dancer, find people that you can kind of relate to. Um, but that's where we made. A lot of us made those relationships because you can't really it's hard toe, get that same kind of feel or fit online or turned by looking at their work on Facebook. Or, you know, I can teach somebody in a week at Texas School or West Coast School or whatever weeklong class I'm teaching. I know in my mind, in my heart I am absolutely 100% positive. I can teach you Mawr in that five days than you would have gotten in four years of college. There's no doubt in my mind that I could read that, Um, because we're gonna put you through so much in such a compact him on a time. But it's coming from 2030. Ah, a lot of eight years of experience, so yeah, I mean, but we met. We met some wonderful people. Wisconsin. I mean, darting Drake was one of my original hunters and Millie total failure and and sue, which was itches. Mary Mortensen. Um, that's kinda an old reference, but, um, and one of my favorites that still to this day that keeps me on track is Scotty do pra. But we met because we're all on print crew together, darting Drake and Scotty do pra and, uh, and myself at the time. And Millie, uh, we we were actually working behind the scenes, and that's how I met those folks. But we just just don't have that kind of relationship anymore. I think that's what this industry is really missing in order to grow those those mentorships or those relationships that you could have so more on the story, go to some live events. You get to

spk_0:   20:56
know what I said. I see in social media and things like that. Ah, lot of these little subgroups where people are connecting, but the problem and it's not bad because I think it's more of ah moral support kind of thing. But the problem I see with that is that they're all kind of at a similar level, and it's their comfort level and they talk to each other often. But they don't have that person who's been around for 25 years or 30 years or has been really successful to kind of give him a different point of view on giving him an idea where to go. So they kind of they kind of collect in these groups and don't nobody. Nobody ever really grows beyond that. Have you guys seen that? I mean, I see this a lot.

spk_1:   21:39
Yeah, and it's kind of Ah, vicious circle because, like Karl said, you go to a state convention and state conventions, no matter what state Iran or you were, you live. Then you had a state PP affiliate and they're generally were anywhere from 200. That Wisconsin is huge. At 5 600 people, you've made connections there. You would learn you would spend or you or you take a weeklong class and you would really dive in to learning as much as you can and then you know it force you to learn it. cause you were there for a week instead of just like, Oh, I'll pick a little bit something here and pick up a little bit something from there. And everyone would do those conventions where those conventions have died down in the year years and there's less full time photographers. So then there's less people who can take a week off of their work or they're doing this on the side. And then what happens there? They can't maybe like Oh, I don't know if I can afford a weeklong school and

spk_0:   22:34
get daycare or the

spk_1:   22:36
the Yeah, I can't take the time off. So then there's less of this one on one, and then there's less of this education, and then therefore there's less. You may be your undervaluing undervaluing yourself for under pricing yourself because no one's telling you this is how you should do it and not even telling you but teaching you how you should do it, as well as giving you the confidence and showing you what you should be pricing at. So it just kind of always like trickle down or like a vicious circle of it's not like it used to be. You know, similar to what you're saying. Michael is like, Oh, you're all kind of, you know, at the same level, or or WPP a would assign you a a master photographer as a mentor. That was part of the membership, and you could ask them anything. You could go spend a day with them or we quit her. What a huge member benefit.

spk_2:   23:24
You know, back in when when I was competitively wrestling. Ah, that was one of the things that that we look for is people who practice with that. We're better than you. So you always practice with the personnel's heavier than you, you know above you for as much as time as you can until they had would do the same thing.

spk_1:   23:45
So that was everyone for us,

spk_0:   23:46
weight wise. I was leaving that alone

spk_1:   23:52
just weight. Wise car. No, but

spk_2:   23:54
it's you always got a battle with somebody that's meaner and bigger and brighter than you are. And that's in my opinion, that's true. And everything we do in life. I mean, if photography is your thing and you want to really learn more, you gotta find summary that is really head over heels mawr into it than you are. Don't just think. I mean, it's great that you find Piers and find people that you can bones things off of every day. But every once in a while you gotta go out and find somebody that's going to just make you go. Ah, wow. A couple hours ago, I thought it was really good Now going there. I really wasn't. And at the same thought process. Remember this. When you do find a mentor, I mean, there's it's really easy to put people up on a pedestal. You don't think that this is this person is like the best in the field, but because they're good at what they do because they're good at photography or marketing or whatever. Doesn't make a really good person necessarily either. And I've seen that all too often, and sometimes it's somewhat disappointing. But take it as it is that you're here to gain information for lighting or for marketing or for composition, or for whatever it is that you need to learn the most. And that's why I say do it multiple people. That's my That's the reason I'm saying that because you're gonna get different things from different people and then put it into your own style. But don't put anybody on a pedestal because, well, certainly fall off

spk_0:   25:27
when I and I think one thing that's missing, maybe for some people is I think you really do have to humble yourself, um, in order to to to gain that extra growth, meaning you've got a humble yourself and say, You know, I don't know everything I need to learn more information teach, You know, it's almost like Teach me master. Let me snatch the pebble out of your hand or let me snatch the whiskey out of your glass on that thought. Let's just take a quick break. There's social goals going sociable. Have a drink. Whatever you've got in your hand, have a drink and we'll be back in just a minute. The photo Happy hours brought to you in part by Mo Light and Golden Eagle US. A Golden eagle provides the best value in color critical led lighting tools for photographers and videographers alike. Check out the wide array of led options at the Mo Light Web store at www dot goma light dot com. More Light is proud to be the exclusive US distributor off Golden Eagle, L E D's and we're back. I think, Dan, you want to pick up kind of work, are left off before we had break.

spk_1:   26:45
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, car was talking about being around. People would kind of push you and kick your butt a little bit. And that's exactly what after dark did for me. You know, I started as an attendee going after dark and just wanted to be a part of that system. So I did whatever I could. I'm like, Hey, I'll do whatever And they said, Well, we need a some assistance for in Vegas. You want to do that? And then after that will have you as a mentor. I'm like, Absolutely So I was an assistant at Vegas and then after that was a mentor and got to hang around with the best photographers. I felt like in the world and in some of the photographers who weren't well, weren't well known at the time. But I could see they were awesome and we all push each other like after dark was like four times a year, and we push each other every time we got together and we encourage each other wasn't like a competition where we were, like bashing each other or was so competitive. It was healthy. It was a healthy competition. Yeah, and we just pushed each other and got better. And it's like people like Ben shirt Dan McClanahan. I mean, James Hayes there. So many people are taken inspiration from Chuckie Dan Row Richard serve on. I mean, the list goes on and they get other great people like Rene, Robin and Brooks Shade and yeah, so you could take something. Yeah, Lindsay other. You mean you're taken Someone that brooks something that broke shade and was doing purely from on artists artistic standpoint and then taking that and, like, how can I apply that? The seniors, you know? Same thing. What? Lindsay and her fashion? I mean, really, And I could be wrong with all of this, but I believe the first time I saw that dancers throwing the flower and when I mean flower, we all know flower now. At first I'd say flower like flowers like pedals.

spk_0:   28:32
It's like no

spk_1:   28:33
flower was lazy Adler And she was doing with these dancers from New York and they were nude dancers and it was beautiful. And I was like, Okay, how can I do this with senior? So I started doing not.

spk_0:   28:48
Not a good start to clarify.

spk_1:   28:53
Thanks for clarifying that. But it's like, you know, you take something. Yeah, you didn't. That's part of the fun story is like, yeah, you take something that she's doing with new dancers and say like, Okay, I can do this. Would high school seniors not nude, but it would be really cool. And and I did it first in the studio, which again, I don't recommend it, makes a mess a huge mess. And that also led me to make in the actual flower brushes so that you don't

spk_0:   29:23
even better. Yeah, you have to make a mess. So I did one of those shoots once, and I due in the studio. I was smart. I didn't do this. You will actually did it in my garage. And she was so nervous that she's holding on to that. That powder and so tight in her hands and her hands were a little sweaty. It was like 123 throat in the areas like it was a clump that stuck to the ceiling. I think there's told Mark on the ceiling way need brushes,

spk_1:   29:59
brushes. And technically, the first time I did it use baby powder because I thought, Wow, that would be like a finer Yeah, it was worth like three years later it was still like showing up in places. But my studio did smell baby fresh for about a year or more, you know, it's so so Yeah. And also look at any kind of mentorship as yeah, it's gonna cost you money. It's gonna cost you more. And I should even say cost. It's a great investment. If I look at the thousands upon thousands of dollars I've spent and still spent, we all do it or I should say spent invest every year in education for ourselves. Now we can benefit from being speakers, but we don't get paid a lot. I think that's maybe a misconception to that when we speak at these events that we make all this money No way. Firstly, we first go because we want to help share. We won't pass the torch. Second, we'd go to these conventions and it wasn't paid to be there so we can at least go for free to the convention. And then any money basically, offsets are traveling expenses to be there. But I'd be going anyways, you know, I'd be paying to go and, you know, and I've had people say that to me like, Oh, my gosh, it's so cool to see you sitting in the programs. You know, someone at your level and I'm air quoting here is sitting in programs. It's like, Yeah, absolutely. I'm sitting into programs because I want toe learn. I want to use this, you know, T b A. Especially with senior photographer. You have to be on top of your game because it changes every second of the day. Yes, yes, it

spk_0:   31:39
does. And we're still learning. I mean, and that's one bit of advice I give to all photographers is the day you stop Learning is the day you start to pretty much die As a photographer, you have to keep learning. You have to keep staying sharp, guys, to keep sharpening the saw. Um, I want change, change directions a slightly again and talk about how we how we as mentors, benefit from entering. And it was interesting thing. The interesting thing I learned and, um, going back to when I was teaching at Madison College. I was there for I can't. I was there for nine years. Can you guys believe it was over nine years in a row? Yeah, um, hated most every minute of it. But any other than one of things I realized I may have touched on this weeks ago is that one of things that forced me to do because I was teaching, you know, portraiture and advanced portraiture is it made me sharpen my game to make sure I had all my tease cross to my eyes dotted my I's cross the t's dotted actor Writing grammar. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And because if I'm gonna be teaching this, I want to make sure that I've got all my ducks in a row. And what the end result for me was that actually made me sharpen up. My studio were quite a bit And, um, so I felt more competent to be able to teach it to these students. And the same kind of thing when I do mentoring is I feel like I get something out of every time I teach. And it's time back to what you're saying, Dan, why do we go out and speak at all these different places, especially if we're not getting paid very much? And quite honestly, guys were We really aren't There are times when we're doing it basically for free, because whatever we're getting in compensation covers our hotel and our travel. That's it. So what are we getting out of it in

spk_1:   33:27
our drinking? Well,

spk_0:   33:29
your bar tab, the way we're in the whole at that point, but a different story. But you know, like you mentioned, there's the opportunity to learn from other speakers who are there. There's the opportunity to network, and that's one place where I've learned a lot is just the after not the after dark, but the after hours stuff where you just sit and talk about photography. And how would you address this? And, um, you know, all those all those things add into the experience and make it beneficial. And then when I teach again, even though it's stuff I'm teaching, that I know it really have re in grains it in my brain to hear me say it out loud. So then I own it even more. Even those stuff I created stuff I talk about stuff I teach. The more I say it, the more I own it too. So, I mean, there is a benefit. Being up on stage in teaching this stuff is well, because I think it makes you own it even more and makes you I don't know what makes you more really, because I don't know that. Not really. I'm teaching, but, um, you guys get what I'm saying Are my eyes the whiskey talking? No,

spk_2:   34:36
no, it makes it was that I instead, I think was I understand that said that. You know, if you truly understand something, you can explain it, you know, until you can explain it and show it You really maybe don't understand it. And the more you showing more you do it. The more you do understand it. Like you said, it makes you find

spk_0:   34:58
it was a smart guy.

spk_2:   34:59
Wasn't smart guy. Um, it's very smart. You know, going back to a dam was saying to, um, about you know how the worth of things. Yeah, we were just watching one about what his favorite movies was. You've got mail, and so we're watching at the other night Because what else is there to do right now during the ride, Rob And

spk_0:   35:22
there's a pandemic. Yeah, you know, I heard about that. We'll talk at home, drinking like normal back

spk_1:   35:34
to this movie and exercise

spk_2:   35:36
phone down the stairs. But they had seen in the whole movie of all the different things that go on in that moving into cool things that go on. My favorite favorite scene is in the bookstore when Tom Hanks first visit the store with his aunt and his brother. You know, the little kids and the guys trying to sell him that book. And he's like these air gold leaf pages in their hand printed, uh, illustrations. And he's like, Is that why this cost so much? You said no. That's why this is worth so much. I thought, You know, that is my favorite favorite part of that whole movie because it's so true and all we do, it's not what things cost. It's what it's worth, whether it's monetary or your time or your travel. But you know, you got a you've got to find the worth in what we're doing, and sometimes it means, you know, correcting out that checkbook, Um, for travel or to just pay somebody further knowledge. But in this field is I I have friends that are, um, on lecture circuits in other fields, like the medical field and psychology, and they laugh at us. They're like, Oh, God, you go and do these programs For what? Um, yeah, well, that's where we don't even step out there unless it's 20 grand. I'm going 20 credit crab. I would take that. I'll take a five 0.5% of that

spk_0:   37:07
fraction. Yeah, my wife's ah mental health therapists. And she gets and she has to do what were called c use continuing education units. So money per year and everything is 300 bucks. I mean, a day, Ah, day long, webinar. 300 bucks. In our business, everybody isn't for free free, right? Right, Right.

spk_2:   37:29
But we talk about business and yeah, we'll make up for it volume, though. Guys, it's OK, That's right. Oh,

spk_1:   37:36
yeah, and there's there some speaking engagements. I just have to turn down because it's just not a right financial decision, you know, it's like I can't do it for that and, you know, kind of like again kind of coming back to the investment part. It's like, Yeah, it's going to cost you money but it's gonna It's an investment. It's gonna fast track you to make that money back. You know, if you do something for free, you know what's the value? Like, you know, it's always like, What's the value of free? You invest the money? Are you investing a mentor and you lock down a few key issues there? A few key points at your business is missing. You're gonna make that money back quite a lot faster than same thing. Like looking on YouTube. I'm learning how to fit to do photography or searching here searching. They're searching wherever you know, invest in something. And maybe if you don't have, if you have a smaller budget, maybe investing on online course instead of just YouTube. You know I do online courses, but I also really stress in person or one on one mentoring, because if you really you know, you can only get so much from online, which we started. You know what we talked about in the start here and then it's like you really want to excel and take it to the next level,

spk_0:   38:47
even even times right now where we can meet in person. Unfortunately, taking to the you know, the 75% level is doing maybe things like this, where you're in a zoom call one on one with a mentor and you It's just you in the mentor where you can talk back and forth, share work, have a critiqued get demonstrations, things like that. I think that's that's got a lot more value than watching something on YouTube. Can we

spk_2:   39:14
just have done a Facebook? We get a lot of likes. I mean, yeah, well,

spk_0:   39:19
I don't get that money like City

spk_1:   39:20
like now they and well, and it's you bring up a kind of a funny point, too, because I have ah, senior boot camp where I go into its heavily. It's everything, my studio from A to Z, and it's like marketing and, you know, finding your ideal client what you talked about last week, like all these different things. And there's homework in between to keep you accountable and, like the really make you think about these things, and it's set up to do one Episode one part of the course each week finished that homework going to next point, you know, and it has pricey and all that in there. It's my lowest selling product. Of course it is. There's no one wants to do the work, or it's like your there's no one there forcing you to do the work, you know, kind of bringing it back to the weeklong school. Like Karl was saying, How he can teach you so much in a week long school is because you have made the commitment. You've made the investment you're there. Sure you have fun nights at night, the unwind. But then you're back up the next day and you got the camera and he's going through things with you. It's like you're a force that whole week to totally push yourself into, put yourself in and do all the work when it's easy, just to be distracted with so much that is going on.

spk_0:   40:35
Yeah, if you're doing a webinar Oh, well, you know, 45 minutes and I'll pause this and maybe I'll just come back to this later and you never come back.

spk_1:   40:44
Yeah, we're Facebook message pops up or that pops up, you know, and similar and is I was having this conversation with with a buddy of mine of boat. Now, like we step in and we go to church each week and you sit in church and you listen and you're there, and you made that commitment to be there and you're have the full attention. Well, now you can't meet and go to church. So you watch it online. Well, all of a sudden you're on your phone, you grab a cup of coffee. It's like, Oh, shoot, I missed. Well, what was

spk_0:   41:14
he saying again? Like, you know, I admit, I have to admit, I kind of like coffee church. Hey,

spk_1:   41:21
there are benefits. I mean, no lie and

spk_2:   41:25
always black coffee to church. I mean,

spk_1:   41:27
you could do that. I mean, our church as a coffee bar in it, but actually was darted. Yeah. Oh, I was talking to dirty about that because he was talking about doing sink sports online, and we're talking about church and everything, and, you know, and and I told him our church has been doing online for for over a year. So being in Wisconsin and winter, it's like, Oh, you wake up on Sunday, it's 10 below zero. It's a

spk_2:   41:53
can do you

spk_1:   41:53
just want to sit on the couch and watch it today? Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good deal, you know, But now were forced to do that. And, you know, it's like, Ah, skip it or, you know, busy with something else or, you know, even like when you open. And I'm getting maybe two churchy on people. But you open up the Bible and you could just read and not be distracted. But you have a Bible app and I'll be on there and I'll be like reading off. Sending the message comes up. I'm like, Okay, like, yeah, because it's really easy to be distracted and, you know, it's

spk_2:   42:25
funny because it used to be. What was the expression we get into our Sunday best? Everyone gets dressed. Help constituted the out Jama Church

spk_0:   42:34
Okasha. I'm in the recliner. I pop the recliner up. I'm drinking my coffee guy. He'll bless my coffee. Well, that's consecrate this pop tart over new spot Bruce Pop tart O

spk_1:   42:47
thing is that I've been I've been doing a lot of communion, which means drinking a lot of so I think I'm pretty good I e mean, Stephanie still has me off the carbs, so I don't know how much how much bread I can have with it, but I'm making up for it. I know why. And I tell you that

spk_2:   43:08
my daughter who's in University Michigan Day, she's in a program that is, we found out it's impossible to get through in four years, given the things that she has to take and and then she's gonna go into

spk_0:   43:25
speaky bastards. I know.

spk_2:   43:28
But so she was looking this summer to do a summer course at the community college and trying to find one that would actually transfer in one of them, which was looking at, was, um is the allergy here, so I don't never where it wasn't It was a four credit class $2400 you know, happened in, like, a four week period. It was like a one month. I said, you know, you can do anything for one month, you know? So you sleep a few hours a night, Whatever. You could do this, but it turned out it it didn't work in the schedule Anyhow. Given her her job this summer, that's gonna be third shift and everything, but, um but I'm like, that's four credits, which really means nothing. In the scheme of things, it means nothing. For her degree, it was for $2400.

spk_0:   44:19
That's Ah, 30th 1/30 of her degree, cause a degree is usually 128. Creditors 29.

spk_1:   44:27
You were going math again? Back

spk_0:   44:29
to the Oh, you didn't make me promise there wasn't gonna be any Matthew. It's been a

spk_1:   44:34
while. Yeah. Yeah. So? So if you want a book us for mentoring, you better do it soon. Because it sounds like we are raising their rates. No kinetic as my voice cracked.

spk_0:   44:46
Do. Speaking of which, um, look, let's you know, let's talk about that, Carl, you've got cc photo coach dot com where you're doing Ah, group mentoring and one on one mentoring as well. And Dan, you've got the your boot camp and you're seniors unlocked. Um, what do you call those Bushes s you insiders? That's your insiders. Oh, and on the inside, I just I just basically do one off mentoring. So you can You can book me directly or you can book me through the group. Papa, the tee hee grou p p dot com So you can book mentoring through that Jason groups place, um on and I do it I typically done in person. I've got somebody on the waiting list to do it in person once we can actually be in person. Um, but I'm doing it via facetime and zoom and Skype and smoke signals and and email And in pelicans carrying the new boards, sending it rave in, send the rate and get there in a fortnight. No, no, no. They get there much faster. And, uh, if you make the dragons, if you need the dragons to come, they come really fast.

spk_1:   45:59
They do What they do is much quicker. If the dragons are on their way way, you

spk_0:   46:07
have to get caught up on game of Thrones. Carl. I know.

spk_2:   46:10
I keep telling me so. This pandemic is a perfect time to Yes, but you know what's how sick it is? I haven't had time to do anything yesterday with my first complete day off, So went hunting in the morning and turkey

spk_1:   46:25
and you pay the turkey turkey.

spk_2:   46:27
You got food? Yeah. And so today I'm back at it with stuff. Nothing getting paid for, but everything I got to do. Um, so and

spk_0:   46:37
I don't Don't blame me for this, okay? So I'm just gonna put this other Don't blame me for this. But yesterday I realized that, like, six months ago, somewhere in there, I had this thought. Yeah, I have thought so quite often, sometimes many per day. And I had this times, like I wouldn't it be great. Be kind of cool. Wouldn't be great. Be kind of cool if I just had a sabbatical where I could take a couple of Swear to God, if I could take a couple of months off, I'd learn how to play the guitar. And I would learn a foreign language. And I would do this, that we do that. You know what I have done? Drank Jack squat. I started. Ah, freak skin podcast. That way. I

spk_1:   47:22
think this is what's got us through this pandemic. Think in this podcast. Hopefully it's helped other people that are listening like R two listeners are long and

spk_2:   47:33
well. What did you

spk_0:   47:34
do in a pandemic? I started a podcast. A podcast?

spk_1:   47:39
Yeah, I I'm still scratching my head about Kara washing. You've got mail. I mean, I e

spk_0:   47:48
I like that movie. You

spk_2:   47:50
know, actually, I dio elective like Tom. Thanks. I think he's, um I really good, accurate. Enjoy that. As there is some good, there's always good nuggets in movies. Just you gotta wade through a lot of crap sometimes to get to him. It's, like way going to, you know, you sit in class. I was really had to send it a message to our friend Dan McClanahan. His is doing his, um, main stage program at B p A. This year, and I walked in the right. I didn't I was really, really busy this year at imaging, so I didn't have much time and I but I had a few minutes for the beginning to his programs. I walked in and I was watching a sit in the back, so I knew I had to leave, had to go to another meeting, and and I was I was watching other thing. I just love watching speaks. He does such a good job, and he's so knowledgeable. And I kind of turned to look and here's BB, um, with, uh, Julian cost sitting, taking notes a Julian cost the person who literally rights the code for photo for photo shop. And she's in his class because he was talking about photo shop and how he uses it. But no, that that's cool picture of being constant and incented Teoh dance and hey, cruising the back girl watching your closet. But yeah, I mean, that's that's what this industry is, And that's why I love this industry. Is that, um, for the most part, the people that I hang out with you want to hang out with? They're continually trying to trying to learn and trying to find those nuggets from anybody that's out there speaking, and we can learn like you mentioned before that when you're old teaching, do you learn? Absolutely. I learned as much then, and it's sometimes I feel bad. I feel because, um, I'm probably learning more sometimes than what my students are, and but we're regain things that that we probably would have thought of, and we can put it in a different perspective because where we're at in the field right now, But things were popping up. We're going who? I never thought about it that way, but, you know, this in this in this holy cow. You know, this is really cool. So would they have gathered the same inference from any situation that we it saying it's us? No, but

spk_0:   50:18
no. You're different experience.

spk_2:   50:19
Absolutely. So you don't know until you don't. I mean, you don't know what you don't know until you find out that you didn't know it. Ah, but at the same time, did that make sense?

spk_0:   50:29
Yeah, it's honestly, I set you guys the other day that dunning Kruger. Yeah, we're that We're talking about

spk_1:   50:35
that before you logged on. Yeah.

spk_0:   50:37
Yeah, because before

spk_2:   50:38
you got here,

spk_0:   50:39
if you don't know what I'm talking about, look it up. The dunning Kruger. Um, it's a chart, but it's a lot of research has been done. It's marries. Basically, for you to have knowledge, you have to have the skill set to the reflects it in vice a versa toe, understand that you actually have the knowledge. And too often people don't have the knowledge, so they think they have the knowledge and they have a lot of confidence, but they actually don't. So basically, it's the same concept. John Cleese, I've sent this to you guys before two. He's got a wonderful clip on YouTube. The explains stupidity and basically the premise is for you to realize that you're stupid. You'd have to be relatively smart. So So if you're relatively smart, you realize that you're relatively smart. You lack the skills, Understand? When you're stupid, you're like the skills. Understand that you're stupid. You

spk_2:   51:32
can't argue a stupid. That's why I just don't even realize that you don't know what they're arguing about

spk_1:   51:38
or or it's still Buffalo story. You know how you know buffaloes. Aaron heard. And you know when they get chased and the weakest animals in the back and then so those animals will get killed by the she does and everything. Getting there. Let's get

spk_0:   51:56
cheated. There's cheaters in Wyoming. I did not know this

spk_1:   52:00
run faster. Have todo

spk_2:   52:03
picked up Michael.

spk_1:   52:05
Maybe it's not the Buffaloes. Maybe it's the L Packers, not out backers. You

spk_0:   52:10
don't have to be ambassador. I just have to go faster than you. The Empire cells. Yeah, let's say that follows so the weaker ones

spk_1:   52:19
get weeded out by the cheetahs, thins the herd, which actually makes a herd stronger, you know, thus, you know when I drink, I lose brain cells, and so the weaker brain cells get killed. And that's when I drink. I actually sound smarter, which is where this whole podcast is

spk_0:   52:34
going. Was wondering where you were going, that it makes total sense to me. So

spk_1:   52:42
it took a while to get there.

spk_0:   52:44
No, no, I get it. So parting shots, any. Ah, any other advice you would give folks regarding mentoring any Any final thoughts?

spk_1:   52:54
Invest. You invest in mentoring. I mean, if you really want to get to the next level, you know, pick out a person or two that you connect with. Talk to them first. I when I do mentoring a lot of times, it's like, Hey, let's meet first It's free And let's talk about some of things to know if I can really help you or not, or I really want to get a game plan, because if you book in a couple of hours, there's not much we can cover in a couple hours. I want to be able to make sure that our time is valuable and we're covering a lot of things. It's gonna make you come away from this with something is gonna be beneficial,

spk_0:   53:34
Carl. Your thoughts for you know,

spk_2:   53:35
I think the biggest thing is on both directions. You know, a mentor should, um, be able to break things down and not in a one button push type of situation. They need to be a coach and understand that everybody learns differently and that you need to be able to customize your education to what each individual is in the in the need off. And that's one thing. But then on the other end, um, and I still do the same thing you need to search out. The person were the person that has the skill sets that you're looking for right now. Right now, I, my mentors, other than you guys, um, are painters. They they're not even photographers because, I mean, I want to learn more about you know why there they can put anything they want in their mind and their heart on the paper, on the canvas or whatever they're they're creating on, um So why? My question is always Why did they put it all where they did and how can I correlate that to photography? It's the psychology of it that is of greatest interest of me right now. I know, but But that's that's where I met. And I actually have another mentor who his His specialty is kind cognitive, cognitive thinking. How the brain works is actually, uh, by trade. Is is ah, chiropractor. But his specialty is is brain functions and eso. I'm hearing a lot from this guy. It's actually a lot of fun, very interesting to me. But that's that's what turns my wheels right now.

spk_0:   55:22
Awesome. So speaking, what turns your wheels every week we have Ah, we have a sponsor. And this week's sponsor is Auntie Gin. Auntie gin is made with real ants. Why? Heck, if I know Auntie Gin don't look forward anywhere near you. And, as always, this is a really liquor. So speaking of which, I've kind of run out of my weird liquor list. So if you guys have run across weird liquor names or weird beer names or anything like that, go ahead and send it to me or posted on um, Post on our Facebook group. By the way, join our Facebook group because that's where we put like beyond the show kind of stuff links the things we talk about. And that's just foot facebook dot com slash group slash photo Happy hour. Um, so are just do a sitter to search for a photo happy hour on Facebook. You can find us and join. Um So, uh, until next week, guys. Cheers to you. Cheers to you,

spk_1:   56:21
Papa Top again.

spk_0:   56:24
Last call. You've been listening to the photo happy, our podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe button to not miss a single action packed episode and join our photo happy our Facebook group. Where will post links to the stuff we all talk about? You confined my mo like here on line at www dot goma light dot com. That's G o M o l i g h t dot com You can find the Facebook page under Moonlight Store and I also run the Go Doc Splash Help group on Facebook. You can find Dan Senior Unlocked website at www dot seniors unlocked dot com that seniors with um S at the end, unlocked dot com and the Facebook group under seniors on lock, and you could find Carl's Coaching Corner at www dot cc photo coach dot com cc photo coach dot com until next time. Cheers to you. If you have enjoyed this separate, sir, please subscribe and give this fellowship the highest possible rating. Do so with great haste. Fly you forward.