Photo Happy Hour

How to identify your ideal client

April 21, 2020 Michael Mowbray, Carl Caylor, Dan Frievalt Season 1 Episode 8
Photo Happy Hour
How to identify your ideal client
Show Notes Transcript

Who is your ideal client? How would you describe them? What's their persona? (Is it "per-sowna" or "per-sohna"?) What is your niche? (Is it "nitch" or "neesh"? We aren't expert linguists, that's for sure.) The guys chat about their ideal clients and ways that you can better identify who your ideal clients are, and how to attract them to your photography business. Along the way we drink a little, have some fun, and get off track a few times to discuss if underwear can be used as a mask, the perils of fishing in Texas, and why cheap Costco Chardonnay should be spelled with an "sh".

Informative and entertaining, grab your favorite beverage and press "play".  And don't forget to subscribe!

Your Hosts:
Michael Mowbray, M. Photog., Cr., owns Beautiful Portraits by Michael in DeForest (Madison) Wisconsin and also owns MoLight. Learn more at:
www.beautifulportraits.com
www.gomolight.com

Dan Frievalt, M.Photog., M. Artist, Cr., owns Frievalt Photography in DePere (Green Bay) Wisconsin and also runs Seniors Unlocked. Learn more at
www.frievaltphotography.com
store.seniorsunlocked.com

Carl Caylor, M. Photog., Cr., ASP-Fellow, Kodak Alaris Mentor, owns Photo Images by Carl in Iron Mountain, Michigan and also runs Carl's Coaching Corner.  Learn more at:
www.photoimagesbycarl.net
www.ccphotocoach.com

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Michael Mowbray :

Recorded live from an abandoned Orange Julius in Springdale mall. It's the photo happy hour podcast. Hey, and welcome everybody. I'm your photo happy hour bartender Michael Mowbray I'm mixing some shaved ice with some tasty rum to create a hurricane of photography fun. Joining me behind the bar are Dan Frievalt. And Carl Caylor. Say Hey, guys.

Carl Caylor :

Hey, guys.

Dan Frievalt :

Hey, what's up? I'm making an old fashioned fashion today with no bitters. Yeah, we're not gonna be bitter.

Michael Mowbray :

It's hard to not be better right now.

Carl Caylor :

Hey, guys, after last week's podcast, I just said I'm not gonna drink anymore. I'm not gonna drink any less either. So

Michael Mowbray :

I was gonna say liar. So in case you're joining us for the first time Um, the premise here is that we're three professional photographers who maybe know a little bit about photography, but we like to drink and talk about photography. And the more we drink, the more we know, or the more we think we know. So anyway, we're we're having some drinks. What are you drinking? Dan?

Dan Frievalt :

I am drinking Chardonnay today. Huh? sheeps cheap stuff from Costco because times are tough. However, having said that, we did splurge on our last wine or order from Napa and get a few higher in bottles, because it's like, we got to just spend some money and feel good about it. And so that's what we did. So you, sir, you have the shard name with the SH Sharda. Ne Yes. At least it's not in a box that you know it is at least

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, I know. screw cap. Exactly. What do you have in Carl, Tennessee whiskey again, totally.

Carl Caylor :

It's gone. Well, actually, it was gone. And they got another bottle. And then that was gone. And we got another bottles.

Michael Mowbray :

How about you Mike? What do you got in there? I'm actually drinking a merleau. For once I haven't had a merleau forever. And it's got a nice little mineral nose to it. It's good. It's good Marlo. Although I did get a scotch shipment in today, the FedEx guy came and I was wondering how they're going to do this because you get the alcohol shipped to you, you have to sign for it. So he rang the bell and I'm like on the other side of the door, and I'm like, Can I air sign? And he's like, Oh, you know, I gotta open the door so he could hear me as open the door and he backs up like six, seven feet. And he just asked me for my first initial and my last name, and then he typed that in and that's considered a signature. So here's your ID. No, so for me, I, you know, I looked at least 22 so any tips for some youngsters out there you can order all kinds of alcohol online.

Dan Frievalt :

Did he did he backup because he didn't shower in a few days? Or was that actual social distancing question.

Michael Mowbray :

He told he started to back up and I started to take offence at it. I'm like,

Dan Frievalt :

oh, yeah COVID Yeah, okay. Yeah. You know when they say wear a mask that doesn't mean put underwear over your head, right?

Carl Caylor :

Not the ones you're wearing.

Michael Mowbray :

Which is one reason why my wife won't let me fold laundry anymore.

Carl Caylor :

masterplan remember? Never ever do anything that you don't like good? Because if you do you get a job the rest of your life.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, you know, in the middle of a cold Wisconsin winter, nothing better than a warm pair of underwear on your head.

Carl Caylor :

We have a very different idea.

Michael Mowbray :

Hey, I'm not saying anything. That's not true. Anyway. made it this far as yet. What is our topic for today? Exactly? Every week we have a topic or a pseudo topic and this week we're talking about client's persona or what kind of clients make our ideal clients or what kind of people are we looking for, for our particular niche or niche we could even talk about that is it niche or niche? Potato Potato? Yeah, you know, I'm from Wisconsin, it's just easier easier to say niche so that's what I'm going with. I thought that

Dan Frievalt :

I stumbled over that boy this cheap started in a packs a punch a they

Unknown Speaker :

just grain alcohol. At this point, I'm just slap happy. You know?

Dan Frievalt :

What more you know, you you do your ups and downs and you just get to the point where it's like, whatever.

Carl Caylor :

Whatever, some more than a lot. What's another month con

Dan Frievalt :

Let's another month. Yes. So yeah, client persona. I kind of brought this topic up, but I thought was good. So I want you to start, right. Yeah, exactly. I'll get it rolling. And it's kind of timely because, you know, a lot of us aren't doing sessions right now. And so maybe it's a good time to kind of lock in and key in on who is your ideal client. And I'm just pulling off my past experiences because I started over eight years ago, which I had a little Facebook memory pop up today. It's kind of ironic, and it really helped me when I started over to understand really, the type of sessions I enjoyed doing, as well as the type of sessions I do enjoy doing, and really lock in on marketing or actually first finding the idea of client. And a lot of times people like Well, how do you get your high averages and things like that and for for a while, kind of stumped me. I'm like, I don't know. I think I'm just lucky. But what it boiled down to is that research I did and that Like all the information I put into really trying to find the ideal client and having that in my head, every time I did marketing or put out messaging or when I talked on the phone, I had that ideal client in mind. And I think I attracted those ideal clients, and therefore, they paid me Well, in the long run, because I first I was getting the right people. And for instance, I just boosted up, boosted paid photo bids to help boost my SEO. And that's one thing I really always wanted to do. But it also one point, you know, whenever I get a lead from Google, it's not really the best lead, because it's just a blind kind of lead. So I'm trying to work on now like, how can I get information to that client that justifies my pricing because they're such a cold lead, and they're not necessarily an ideal client. So how can I do that? So I'll just kind of start with that and let you guys talk for a bit and come back around and my thoughts Yeah.

Michael Mowbray :

He's made that recommendation to clients when I was in advertising and done the same thing for myself is I've always said to try to actually picture who that person is. Or if you've got a client that fits all the criteria that fit, who your ideal client is, you know, picture talking to that person all the time. So when you're writing all your copy for any ads, or emails, or even your website, feel like that person's right across from you, and that's who you're talking to. And that will change your tone based on who that person ends up being male or female. Predominantly, in this business, we're talking and targeting female, but not always, and you know, what, kind of socio economic strata? What kind of job? Are they warm? fuzzies are they cold pricklies you know, what are their personality types and that will guide you towards how to create those marketing messages. And really kind of create your brand message to make sure that what you're doing is talking about Talking to the right people and connecting with the right people. Because if you're, if you're seeing, kind of like you're alluding to Dan, like you're getting some some of the Google stuff coming in. This is not your ideal customer. If you're in your business, you're getting a lot of leads coming in that just aren't the right people take a step back. Maybe it's the way you're presenting your brand. Maybe it's the venues you're using to present your brand. Maybe it's the language you're using. I come down to Well, a lot of what causes problems for businesses in the portrait photography. Business is the language we use. The language we use in marketing the language we use when we speak to customers. The language we use when we're an in person selling process, and that language makes a huge difference and I don't think enough attention is paid to that. He'd like to talk in English language or like if I was gonna say I speak Latin.

Dan Frievalt :

France, France, Fred Julie.

Carl Caylor :

Speak with an accent.

Unknown Speaker :

I

Michael Mowbray :

just pissed off all of our French people. Oh, oh seven. Yeah, no language, the words the words that we use, you know, and how and how we say things and when we say things even enunciation Yes, no black there. Actually, this might be kind of a slippery scary slope here. But I like to go back to what Dan was saying about

Carl Caylor :

having photo biz do work on your SEOs right now because they they're offering you a lot of people are listening in or photo biz clients too. But I was wondering about this myself. I know when you set up a website, with photos, they kind of go through that are in the first place. So my question was, I saw the ads too. What are they? What are they offering Nami? What are they doing in addition to when we initially set up I mean, what It has things have things kind of relaxed. While we've had this for the last eight, nine years, or, I mean, do we have to keep up on it? Is that what we're paying? Or is that what you're paying them for me? So what what do you what did you Why did you do what you did there, Dan?

Dan Frievalt :

Well, I did what I did, because it's actually when I talked to them at imaging in January. It's something I wanted to do, because I hadn't done really much with my SEO, since eight years ago, when I started over and I had great SEO because I started and I was blogging, and I was doing keywords and had Google Analytics and a lot of different things. And through the years, I just let those things lapse. It's one of those things you just run out of time to keep up with. And so I talked to them about doing it, drag my feet like you know, most people do. And then when the 50% thing came off, I'm like, Okay, this is it. Like I really want to focus on my business. It's 50% off, which isn't very expensive. Their initial service isn't that expensive to begin with. So 50% off was a steal. And so that you have to fill a form out and they've kind of asked who you feel your competition is, you know what keywords what, you know, niche Do you really want to focus in, and then they go in and they put the proper, proper metadata in, in keyword in in so that you rank higher on your Google search. And I'm already ranking on the first page, but I'm not number one anymore. So being number one, at least I'm on the first page still with certain keywords, you know, and they know which keywords they know what people are searching for. So for us, for instance, we might say, we might call it portraits. But if if a client is out there searching, they're going to search for senior pictures Green Bay, for instance, or, you know, so they can look and see where the searches are coming from and what keywords are being used for a search when we might just put down portraits and heirloom photography and All these fancy words which, which might be searches for, right? And right, and Michael, I mean, it's important to use those words when you're doing sales and marketing. But you also have to change your thought. And even if you just say senior pictures or pictures, you know, senior photos or high school senior photos, like graduation photos, like what words are people actually using, and they can look at Google Analytics and find those things out. And it's different for each area. Your area, people might be searching for different things based on your area down and yeah, I mean, right in Texas, that's what they're saying. And I'm going What the heck is a cap and gown session? Right? We don't do that up here. So now right? So keyed in and that and then taking it to the next thing. So I'm putting I kind of put myself in the clients shoes and said, Okay, if I don't know anything about photography, and I google then this person came up and I went to their site and I like their site and their images. That's step one, okay, I'm going to reach out and contact this person. Now what makes me stand out other than other than price? Because if you're gonna have the same product as everyone else, people are going to choose the cheaper version. It's just human nature, right? It's a commodity at that point. Yeah. And so word of mouth is great, because people share their experiences, they talk to people. And so you're kind of prequalify that way. And that's how I get most of my business. But if I want to improve my, my business through Google, how can I improve that and show the experience so I'm doing videos and blog posts and informational emails where they can kind of understand that it's more than just a photo session session with me it's an experience and if they value that, fine, then they'll book me. If not, then they're just price shopping and that's okay. But these are things I'm trying to automate so that it doesn't take much time but yet it still explains why I'm different.

Michael Mowbray :

That's one great thing about it, if you can automate that kind of stuff is you take some time to craft that, and you spend the time upfront to craft it. But once you've done that, then it runs on its own. You know, there's very little, it's not like you have to do the same thing over and over and over again. You take the time upfront and get it get it right. And, you know, I see a lot of people spending too much time doing the same thing over and over again, in their business with when they could be automating things. For example, even even email replies to clients. How many of you guys scripted out your email replies to clients when you when you get inquiries in I have their own Google Doc on my desktop, copy, paste, throw it in, or maybe change a word to personalize it done? You know, I see too many people sit there and Ah, hey, thank you for contacting me regarding senior portraits. I'm so excited. What do I want to say next? You know, that kind of thing.

Unknown Speaker :

You know, that way

Michael Mowbray :

You can, you can streamline things, but also you can really craft it to make sure that you're creating something that's got the right tone that fits your brand. And it's going to resonate with the people you're trying to talk to.

Dan Frievalt :

Exactly. And if you were at imaging, which seems like years ago, right and with everything that's happened, but the closing keynote speaker really hit that home on the type of words you use. Now is also interesting, because she also mentioned a lot about ending with a handshake and in different things now that you're like, Oh, my God, we can't touch people, you know. But it was really important that the words that you use and how you craft that, and how that can really, you know, affect someone's perception of you and that's the what I struggle with. So yes, having some kind of script does help. I always like in my contact form. It's like they have to Put down a phone number, it's one of the required elements in the contact form, which is great with photo based too, because you can, instead of just having an email, where people email you something, they have to fill out a contact form. So it helps me stay organized, which I'm not always a greatest at. And it also has fields that they have to fill out. And one of those fields is the phone number and other one is the best time to call you. Because I am a personal business that wants to, I'm better at talking than typing and grammar. So for me to, you know, I may start with an email script, but I want to really talk to them and follow up and ask questions about who they are and what their senior is and what hobbies they have. And you know, what interests they have and what kind of paint the picture of what I can do for them because I am selling the experience at that point. You know, and I'll talk price I don't have a problem talking price, but if I just send a price list, that's they're just basing it on price. And I'm not the cheapest so don't worry It all becomes about price somebody because people ask about price because they don't know what else to ask is like, how much is the classic in our businesses? How much is an eight by 10? Well, do you even want an eight by 10? I've thrown that back at people it's like, well, they'll call and say how much is an eight by 10? It's like, Well, how do you even know you want an eight by 10? And it'll be a pause like, I don't even know what I want. Well, let's talk about what you know. Exactly. are now it's transition into DSL digital files. You know, would you have come in so I, oh, yeah, our files included, and in so I hit them back with what do you want to do with them? Because if a lot of the seniors want to share them on social media, and so yes, I have social media files, that's the most economical way to get some digital files, but I specialize in printed portraits, things for your home and, and you can buy files to print but that's not the most economical way. And so you kind of you know, work around that or one One thing that I keep seeing over and over again and this is on my list to do write it down again here, but to have on your website images of wall portraits, not just wall portraits, but you know the room with all right, it's it's subliminally telling people I sell wall art. I don't just sell digital files. And I know I've heard it from a few different people. When I've gone to conventions and stuff like that, that's brilliant. even put it in in your price list or your price menu showing examples of walls with images on them that's telling, you know, you know, that you sell that also shows scale like here's a, here's a 30 by 40. You know, this is what you want. So, I did that this year. This is the first year I've done that I put a wall collage,

Carl Caylor :

a canvas, you know, wrap collage, in the actual price menu book, and I was dumbfounded at how many people I commented on that and how they're like, Well, that makes sense. Maybe I gotta do one like this. I'm going, no one's ever pointed any of my price menus ever before and said, I need one like that, because that wasn't what goes on there. So yeah, that is a phenomenal idea. I think that I was kind of missing out on for a lot of years. And it kind of happened by accident this year. And I think that's something that gonna definitely have to continue. But as far as my ideal client now, you know, as much as I hate to think about it, I think what I'm going to do is completely start over from scratch. And what I mean by that is, I'm going to be looking for families with younger or middle aged kids.

Michael Mowbray :

Like in their 40s. Yeah.

Carl Caylor :

Yeah.

Michael Mowbray :

That people have money.

Carl Caylor :

Well, it's true. Well, not here. I mean, in most places, it's true not here. I know I want, I need a client that I can develop a relationship with. I need somebody that I can photograph a family this year, maybe another two years every year would be great, but every other year would be wonderful. And then lead into a senior portrait, a senior portrait, senior portrait, another family portrait. I need, we don't have that many families here. And we don't have that much of a population here. So I need to find a guest that is going to be able to repeat and so I'm going to start in fact, I was working on this this morning, and I was thinking well in in nine months, you're might have a boom in families first so No, I mean, that's that's a long wait, nevermind where I could go there.

Michael Mowbray :

Don't get me started.

Carl Caylor :

You won't

Dan Frievalt :

Laughter me

Carl Caylor :

mark my words there is going to be an influx of following costumes next year with people wearing yardsticks it's gonna look really awkward but they're gonna have yardsticks you know how far away you stand from each other? That's gonna be Halloween costumes next year I guarantee it. But no, I need I need families that we can have. I need to be able to see them multiple times in the next four or five, six years. And that's so that's really what I'm going to target. Because I was thinking the last few weeks I'm going to target my seniors No, how am I how am I going to really target them in this morning? I thought no, I that's great. I got to target mark, you know, target seniors too, but I think I'm going to spend more energy trying to go after families with children, you know, middle you know, middle school aged children right now. Three would be ideal. three kids would be ideal in my mind right now. It's easy photograph them.

Michael Mowbray :

family portrait take get five people. So you got a good pyramid kind of thing going on. And yet, we have a family several times throughout the time period of them all graduating and plus the graduations itself. So I think that in the end in the long run looking at the long game that would help me financially better than just a senior. So that's that's my target right now. That makes sense. The interesting thing you bring up those and this is different for me, because you said you know, you'd be targeting families ideally, they have three kids, I have found and I keep you always track who my best senior customers are. And the biggest part of my business over the years has been seniors weddings, headshots, and families you know, somewhere down below that and I've really stopped doing weddings, so noms, mostly seniors and headshots. And my seniors tend to be tend to be one kid, one kid or two kids. And they splurge on that one kid or the two

Unknown Speaker :

Kids, I don't see a lot where they've got three or four more kids. Now, there aren't a lot of families anymore that had three or four more kids, at least not around here. But the ones I've done really well with, it's a single kid. It's a good point, and which is why it's another reason why I was looking for families of young families that already have seniors. I want families of middle school kids, because I want to make sure I'm photographing that first kid through

Carl Caylor :

because how many times you hit it on the head, right? A lot of them. A lot of families have one child right now and that's great. They in I've seen the same thing. I've typically get better sales or higher sales from single children, families. However, I've gotten the worst situations in my mind. experiences, I guess, is what I'd say in clients that have come with their second and third, they weren't happy with their first words. Where they took their first senior. And now we're like, okay, we gave them this and they're going, Oh my gosh, I love it. I love it. But I can't do this and this and this because we have nothing that matches it from the first and I'm going, ah, you know. So that's why I really want to get them now I want that first one through the first kid. Yeah, yeah. So that, you know, get them. Everyone has to do the same. So I know if that first kid through ordered, you know, three wall portraits for a collage and they had metals and they had collage or your album or Yeah, the montage is kind of loose in there for a minute. But if we made a montage for him and did all these different things, I know we're doing the same thing for number two and number three, so that's why it's so important. That's what I want to target that now so we can get them before somebody else messes it up on me. You know, we don't want them to screw up the process.

Unknown Speaker :

as

Dan Frievalt :

well and that was my theory with a couple years ago, hitting the tween market and getting them in where it's a shorter time span before they become a senior client but yet you are first exposed to them. That sounds bad.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, don't be exposing yourself to tweet.

Dan Frievalt :

Pro Tip pro tip Do not be exposing yourself to tweets, but you you present your photography, art to them before you know and create something for them. And it's another transition in their life, you know, transitioning from, from baby to, you know, or from a child to to a young adult, you know, let's say or a tween, you know, and then when they transition from at the senior year, it's from their senior their transition into an adult and a lot. They changed a lot from you know, 12 to, you know, 15 you know, and then 15 to 17. And then you know, 17 to 21, or whatever. So, you are documenting that time and that transition in their life. And when I spoke at W PPI this year, it was interesting because I was speaking to some some photographers from Russia, and they're just couldn't understand senior photography. You know, they're like, I don't understand it. I don't understand it. And then there was another gentleman next to me and he was, you know, we're both trying to explain it. You know that it's a transition in time and they just thought it was weird. And it is kind of weird in a way they're like, so some like 40 year old man like photographs, these 17 year old girls, Doesn't that seem weird to you? Like, well, it's only weird if you think it's weird, but totally worth it pay me. Yeah. We gotta get paid. All right. Well, you know, it's about that transition in their life. You know, it

Carl Caylor :

It's in. So you know, it's it's similar to a wedding You know, there's that's a transition in their life, or First Communion or a bar mitzvah or something that's a transition. So we documented that discussion this morning with I was I was doing one of my coaching sessions with one of our members and, and we were discussing the clothing that the senior had was awful. I mean, it was really awful. She was like a clown suit or something. And I said, but, but here's the thing I said, senior portraits now, they're not it's not about the yearbook, the kids don't care. I mean, they really I mean, they do, but they just, it's not on the top of their mind. With the curveballs and stuff for social media. That's cool. So really, you know, our portrait worker know, especially with seniors is a time capsule. So I was telling her that, you know, like, I tell my guests, my senior guys, I say, hey, I want you to bring at least one top that's long sleeve, solid color, no stripes on patterns, no logos, something that's simple and timeless that we can do something that is Candidate itself, you know, you know in the near future, but after that I want you to bring in things that you wear all the time, because we want to show a time capsule. And like you said, That's why we've want to photograph tweens. We want to photograph the 3633 months, six month, nine month, year to year. And then where do you go? You sit back when they're 17? That's exactly great. Or how do you get them then Okay, so if we can't convince them to come back for a tween thing, that's when the family portrait to me works because it's an excuse to get them in front of us. And when I'm when they have come in for their family session, I'm going to photograph the family as a whole. I'm photographing mom and dad, they don't have a choice. And then I'm photographing the kids as a group, but I'm, I'm really working on going Hey, while we're here, and we're doing this, I'm going to photograph Susan and photograph Jill, and I'm gonna photograph Jonathan, so that we can maybe make a wall collage of each individual person The three of the kids mom and dad in the whole family, would that be cool that show everybody's personality and then the personality of the family, but that's a way of kind of getting that time capsule. Going there a little bit. But I mean, that's we're photographing, we're recording, live recording, graphing or recording. Gotcha. We're creating for time capsules of milestones in our lives. And those are the clients that I want. That's what I'm trying to get across to people that if it's to make it important, I want the people to feel it's important to them to capture those moments in a professional manner. Those that

Michael Mowbray :

here's a toast to time capsules in life, everybody take a drink that says Time Capsules in life. Yes. Wasn't that like a 70 song from Jim Croce? Anyway, on that note, I've got no let's take. Let's take a real quick break and we'll be back in just a bit. The photo Happy Hour is brought to you in part by MoLight and Golden Eagle USA. Golden Eagle provides the best value and color critical LED lighting tools for photographers and videographers alike. Check out the wide array of LED options at the MoLight web store@www.molight.com. MoLight is proud to be the exclusive us distributor of Golden Eagle LEDs. Hey, and we're back. And we're still picking up on talking about who our ideal clients are, what their persona or persona is like. Dan, you had some thoughts on that?

Dan Frievalt :

Yeah, so when I started over, I really wasn't sure what my brand was in and really wanted to get a feel for what people felt by looking at my images what my brand was because we're so connected to our own brand or our own imagery or we may not feel like we have a style or you know, what kind of messaging are we putting out so what Did his like, sent it out a bunch of images to a group of different people than I asked those group that kind of share it with people didn't know and kind of get feedback. And now with social media, it's a lot easier to do that. Or what you can do is just quite simply, if you've been in business for a long time, I know I think it was, and I always say her name wrong so forgive me by Kaia. But help me guys by honor on Yeah, on barnburner. I think I think she mentioned this at imaging, but she's just post on social media, Facebook or wherever, just say, let's three words that describe my photography or my art. And it's interesting to see how people you know, photographers and non photographers clients, how they view you, through your art, you know, really give you an idea like the same words are gonna come up and some words that maybe you didn't think of Use those words or develop a client client persona, based on those words, because that's already the brand you're putting out there, you just may be too close to it to realize what that is. And so just grab a hold of that in all of your marketing and all of your social media posts, kind of keep that in mind when you're when you're putting stuff together. Because that's what people see of you. And if you see something maybe you don't like or you want to change, well, then now's the time to focus in on those areas to change that persona or that brand that you may have. And move forward. Okay, three words to describe my photography.

Unknown Speaker :

Ah,

Michael Mowbray :

yeah. I was waiting for you. Yeah. What are you saying is what? Well, we think, doesn't matter. It's how the other people see it, how the clients see it, how would they describe it and that's the feedback he's looking to get. So I was just putting you on the spot. You don't have to answer that. It's supposed to say shity

Dan Frievalt :

shity crappy. Okay. Usually it's sucky it comes up from a second, sir. Okay, those are the additional seven or addition to the Seven Dwarves, you know, that tops out the top 10 That's right. That's right. And one thing I kind of came up with when doing this is I made a list of the sessions I enjoyed, and like the type of clients that fit that so for instance, the sessions I felt like if the, if the senior was kind of a drama queen and or beauty queen and everything like those sessions weren't always the most fun for me. I enjoyed the sessions where the girl was a little bit more athletic. But yeah, could get glammed up a little bit enjoyed maybe having hair makeup done. It's not something they did every day, but they It was fun, it was fun to play a little, little dress up and, but also have the athlete in them shine. And that's was the perfect client for me and those, that's why I connected with because I was an athlete, and I enjoyed showing that side of them. And I also enjoyed like, okay, we can have fun outfits and get hair and makeup done as well and create some some cool things that way. So for me that really those sessions were the most fun because those are the ones I was most connected to, instead of just like, oh, that session isn't that fun. So I kind of maybe didn't put as much effort into it or just kind of didn't have the same connection with a client and therefore we didn't kind of like feed off of each other during this session. And so the experience maybe for them wasn't as good and that's not their fault. It's just that we didn't connect the same way. So I went out and wanted to really mark it as, hey, if you're an athlete, and you'd like to get dressed up, this is what we can do for you. And so I attracted the clients or like some people will say like, Well, my clients will never buy a montage. Why go to their website and look at what they're doing? And it's like, well, the montage may not fit you because you're not putting it out there. Or maybe if you started showing examples of a montage, guess what people aren't going to buy what you show, you know, you know, in the same thing, like during an older session, I would get like, Ah, man, why did they buy that image? I knew they're gonna buy that image. It's my least favorite image. Well, guess what? Yeah, it was my fault. I showed it. Yeah, it's not their fault. I took it and I showed it now. People will say like, what what if they ask for it, people don't ask for it. I'll just say you know, you had better images or you blinked or something. It wasn't these are the best of the best. And so I want to show the best of the best because I don't want them to get something because you know, they're gonna pick the, the one that you didn't like, Oh, don't list don't even show them that. Never show it.

Michael Mowbray :

If you've if you've got customers who are asking, you know, and I've run across this with other photographers where customers will ask to see all the other shots, okay, something's going wrong there because you didn't show them either didn't show them enough to get their interest in something to buy it or oversold, how many of you are going to show them or something? You know, what you show them should be grabbing their attention and give them something that they're going to be very happy with and buy from and never show anything you don't want to sell. But if you've got somebody who's saying, well, there surely are a lot more. Ah, you kind of came up short somewhere. That's my opinion. There is but please don't call me Shirley. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker :

The same thing

Unknown Speaker :

under

Michael Mowbray :

clearance clearance. So that's the wrong day to give up sniffing glue.

Dan Frievalt :

I gave the wrong you

Unknown Speaker :

yours to give up.

Michael Mowbray :

On I was thinking about that the other day not to go off on a tangent but, but the idea had a bad year in 2019 is like, ah, I can't wait until 2020 because it's no way it's gonna be as bad as 2019 it was like, hold my beer

Dan Frievalt :

if you're looking for a fresh start for 2020 You got it?

Carl Caylor :

No, just the opposite of you know if there's something you don't like, don't show it because you know Dharma like they're gonna buy it. But also, if there's something you go through, you got to look at your images with a fine tooth comb. I mean, the editing process and this is something that just drives me nuts. I hear everyone saying about the edits. I'm editing is getting rid of crap and keeping good stuff. That's what editing is. artwork is a completely different story. And that's artwork. But edit. So you make sure that anything that isn't perfect doesn't go out as well. I mean, it's Murphy's law that that one image that you're like, oh, man, they're gonna really like this. This is a great expression and the background looks really cool. And I did this the lighting hit just right, but it was autofocus. That's the one that does a lot of love because of everything else yet when they make it a 40 by 60, because they loved it so much, and they're gonna go,

Unknown Speaker :

Oh, this is all fuzzy. Well, yeah. So would you like to upgrade to a painting of this image? I

Dan Frievalt :

know.

Unknown Speaker :

He told me

Dan Frievalt :

Well, we've all done that. Yes. There's ways you know, steaks are back in my wedding days, there'll be like, oh, shoot, this is out of focus. Okay, so then let's turn it black and white and do that high grain luck to yeah It's a huge gray and noise. It's called it's not in Photoshop noise, but we call it green because it sounds fancier.

Michael Mowbray :

But yeah, right, right. 200 t max or whatever it was back in the day. 98,000 Yeah, that's right. Okay, fine. Let's get this stuff processed the right way. And we just lost anybody under the age of 50.

Carl Caylor :

That's right. That's right.

Dan Frievalt :

Anyhow, back to clients was back back the client. Ah, yeah, I mean, in you know, maybe now is that time maybe it's not the time but I see photographers be like, Oh, I specialize in weddings and families in business portraits and dogs and cats. And you know, it's it's, like I say the word brother podcast dogs with

Unknown Speaker :

kupwara dwara.

Unknown Speaker :

I've actually been

Dan Frievalt :

remark that Well, so, you know, yes, it's good to have a variety of things to bring income in. But think of how, if you specialize in everything, you know, are you really focused on one thing or not? And I, when I say focus, it's more than just the type of session and maybe that's just me. But when I focus completely on seniors, I had the I created systems, especially for seniors and everything was senior related. And it it helped attract the right seniors. And I had a workflow that worked great for seniors at a pricing that works great for seniors, I had the verbiage that went through with seniors, like everything was so tight, that that's what helped. Actually, that's what made me give up weddings because dollar per hour I was making way more money. I still am on a senior session, then all the work that goes into a wedding, and I couldn't get weddings. You know, it's like, okay, you're gonna pay me five grand for a wedding when I'm making four grand and see That takes me a couple hours to do, right? Like, right, you know, it's like, okay, you know, and in what I tell people is, it was tough. It's tough giving up those other jobs. But when you pick up that phone and you have to turn down that wedding, guess what that just did, you can look at it two ways you can be like, oh, shoot, I just gave up three grand or five grand. Or you can say, you know, how much time I just saved away in a week, I'm going to use that time to put into seniors into marketing, you know, are you scheduling marketing, like every week, every day, you know, like, you need to schedule marketing if you're not very good at keeping up with it and just like, okay, every day for an hour I'm going to spend on marketing, because that's the time I would have normally been doing maybe a wedding and if I can get two or three seniors in even if your average is $1,000. If you get a couple of seniors in or let's say you worked on your pricing and your workflow that your average went from 1000 to 2000. dollars. You know, it's it's not just like, Hey, I'm gonna go out and have a beer and smoke a cigarette because oh shoot I just gave up a wedding it's like no use that time efficiently. Dan you don't smell soapbox moment I have to have a drink for my

Unknown Speaker :

rant.

Carl Caylor :

Hey, you know, that's a good here's a good thought because I got so like a lot of you a lot of us so into everything was seniors, seniors seniors seniors that's all we ever pushed out it's all I tried to put out when we talk about here it is and but I'm now I'm starting to think no, we still do the other things we still do the families and the tweens and the kids and and all that kind of stuff. And it occurred to me this last year because I really the last few years really updated how I did my pricing and a lot of it was based on what you guys helped out with and and some other folks too but um Hey Benji

Unknown Speaker :

good

Unknown Speaker :

Dog, Good dog.

Carl Caylor :

But no I was so about but it's so steered towards seniors. And now that I'm really pushing towards families again, I'm going you know what, I don't even have a price list for families anymore because you see that everything goes the same whether it was a senior, a kid or a family or what it was the same price no matter what the eight by 10, that 20 by 20, or the 24 inch print. The only thing that changed was Canvas versus foot wrap versus, you know, standard print with frame it. But now I'm going shoot, I got to revitalize my family port price list, my senior price menu, the kids between me and now I'm thinking myself, okay, again, why would it be any different, right for a family versus a kid? Should you all be the same, but it does in as far as the applecart. When you think about it, the senior we're doing a lot of things right now though. A lot of us are doing things based on our own volume. So They do, you know, the wall portrait and the gift prints and the wallets and the book as well now most of my families aren't going to have albums. So really, it's not a four step category thing for my family so, but I'm thinking my family's prices are going to be the same as my senior ala carte. So that all matches everything. Otherwise, they're gonna say, Well hold come an eight by 10 from my family didn't cost the same as it does for senior or back and forth. So what are your thoughts on pricing compared to different product lines that now we're going to be pushing towards? Mine's exactly the same. So for Sr. I can't quote any of the prices off the top of my head because I actually have to pull up the price list but a 16 by 24 Canvas gather up Canvas for senior exact same for the family.

Michael Mowbray :

You know, 30 by 40, same thing 16 by 20, same thing eight by 10. Same thing. I do have a slightly similar simplified. If you're getting a wall portrait, 16 inch or larger wall portrait of the family, there is a price break on gift portraits of the same image. So if they're doing 16 by 24, and they want to gift some eight by 10s, or whatever to family, I think I think it's 50% off gift portraits from the same image as long as there's a wall portrait purchase. But yeah, it's exact same price, because I have a lot of people who go through that I'll have because I do the free family portrait session for every senior client. And some of them will come back in the fall and they'll do a family portrait and we'll come back the next year and do a family portrait. I don't want to have this cognitive dissonance. There's your college word for you. Oh, yeah. They drink to your cognitive dissonance. cognitive dissonance. I don't want to have this cognitive dissonance where, you know, they paid one price before and then now they're praying a different price. It's like Why? Why would it be different they wouldn't understand. Well, you know, I had more time and no

Dan Frievalt :

They don't care. You know, they don't know they don't care price at the same. Oh, and I was just gonna say and I'm similar but a lot of my family clients, my headshot clients, you know all our feeders from my senior clients so yes I specialize in seniors I only market seniors but guess what I always get headshot calls I get weddings so people so call like I don't see any weddings. I don't see any new boards on your site, but I can tell by your imagery. It's really artistic. Will you do this for me? So I can still do that and it's not like I'm turning away business. Although I do turn I don't photograph anyone under the age of nine. That's just me as dollar per hour, it's just not worth it. But you know, but you know, a lot of people come to me they own businesses, so I can pitch headshots to them. I can pitch you know, product photography to them, anything that can help their business. I can you know, of course like Michael Said family stuff in the fall, they're coming back. So the beauty too is I think a lot of people spend a lot of time and effort marketing to get new clients. And that's exhausting. And it takes a lot of time. But when you it's a lot easier to market to people who already know like and trust you and have been through the process. They're pre qualified. So, yes, for families, they don't have to go through my four step, create a collection process, but I've already made a good chunk of money off of them. They're pre qualified, we go do a half an hour family session in a fall. And I know I'm going to sell a couple of wall portraits and it's, it's so easy. It's, it's just it sells itself. It's like printing money. Yeah. Well, and you know, it's, I've always called it data mining. And the analogy I always used to draw for clients is you spend all this money going out chasing new business and you're not maximizing the business you have with your existing clientele. It's like literally digging a goldmine where you strike gold, and you're pulling gold all the mine and then like

Michael Mowbray :

little ways into you're like, you know what? I'm gonna abandon this mineshaft I'm gonna drive 50 miles over this way I'm gonna dig a new mind and see if I can find gold. why you've already found gold in this one place you need to maximize that pull as much gold out of the ground as you can. And then think about trying to find a new place to dig another goldmine get a different analogy of fishing, catching fish, but hey, let's read we want it we don't want to just go here fishing. We want a boat, right like jet over there for a while. Get the wind in your hair and all that and then move on or it could be like that time we were down in Texas and we went Yeah, striper, striper fishing and and he's like, oh, there's seagulls over there at 50 miles an hour across the lake skipping above the waves onto the back of the boat.

Unknown Speaker :

Like flashy float at one point. Like I was going to a one point no you

Dan Frievalt :

He said just don't follow you don't need. You just don't fall out.

Michael Mowbray :

Getting it we're getting on this bass boat or with those professional guide and it's like well, Hi, I'm Captain clays like well, Clay Nice to meet you. holding my hand out is I'm saying it's one thing I got to tell you is I can't swim. And he's pulling me onto the boat. Like, what was the best that you don't fall out then?

Unknown Speaker :

Well,

Michael Mowbray :

he didn't tell me you're gonna go 50 miles an hour across waves.

Dan Frievalt :

Right? I'm sorry. And back to the families like I send emails out this week to my email list. And it's like I'm marketing to pass families because it is just easier and they have a relationship with me. So I'm saying hey, you know, if you want a free family portrait session, I'm honoring that with everything that's going on. family's important. Let's get together Create a session when it's safe. You know, it's so easy. And hopefully you've been collecting emails or phone numbers and everything. And I have a nice system, I use success where I don't get paid to say that. But whatever system you use to track, you know, there's some systems that are great, like success where I don't use it to its full potential, but you can put every sibling in and their birthday, and maybe you send it sends an auto email at their birthday says, happy birthday or get a free birthday session. Like every anniversary, if you've done weddings, you know, maybe you offer something. So there's a lot of again, circling all the way back to how we started with having some of these things automated, to help bring your business that is it sells itself because these are people that that you know, and it's easy for me, I don't like how many people but they, they know me, and they're like, yeah, you know, I always wanted to do that. Thanks for reminding me. You know, they're thanking me it's like, instead of

Michael Mowbray :

I feel like I'm just asking for money. You know? And if they say no, it's no big deal. And direct email works. I mean, you know, you're right. You don't want to be spamming people. But, you know, if you do it infrequently or provide value every time you do it, it will pay back. One thing I was going to talk to you before we even got in a podcast today, Dan is you you would send out an email to your list today because I'm on your list and you talked about our previous episode. I went in, I tracked our listeners and downloads today. Nice, big spike up. You know, so people, obviously saw the email, obviously read the email, obviously, click through to the link and listen to the last podcast. So it's not like people are ignoring everything that's coming in. If you're providing value and they trust you, and you've provided them value in the past, they will open your email and see what you have to say this time. So you're saying that people trust us? Yeah, well, they trust him. Yeah. I mean, I posted all over social media. We got like five people listening. So I clicked on that one. It's a you're one of them. It's a Yeah, it's if you I've clicked on it, I clicked on it like 30 times. So like, yeah, that doesn't count. I'm paying per click for that. Yeah.

Carl Caylor :

You just give me a great idea, Dan. I think maybe there's a market. I haven't heard of it yet. But I think maybe let's try just for fun to market to for anniversary sessions. You know, really target the mom. Say, Hey, because I'm seeing you know, I, I'm seeing lately a lot of Facebook posts about their anniversary. You know, it's always the mom. It's always the woman posting about, it's been 26 years. But I'm like, you know, maybe instead of a Valentine's Day thing, which I think is to Hallmark. But really steered towards, you know, let's push out a couple times throughout the year, a special anniversary session. And we can make it what you want

Michael Mowbray :

tied in with the family session too. Because that's, that's one of the things that drives family session bookings is you know, there's a milestone, maybe it's a 35th or 40th, or 50th, or grandparents, whatever, and that'll drive. And then if they aren't even thinking of that, they're just they book the anniversary. I'm like, Hey, have you guys thought about doing an updated family portrait? Boom, you know, they get the whole time. Exactly.

Dan Frievalt :

Yeah, that's a great idea. And it also kind of made me think of something that I wrote down before but then we got on a different tangent of how different niches niches that you do can actually maybe hurt your business. And I, you know, so for instance, I'm a male photographer, and I photograph high school seniors. I do not photograph broodwar you know, because I feel like that any amount of money that brings in is going to hurt my business way more than it's going to help my business. That's just my opinion. Now, if someone that I know asks me to do a session I don't advertise it, I can do it. I'll do those sessions. I don't post it anywhere which normally would would wire you don't always post it anyway. Yeah, that's kind of the downfalls with that it's kind of hard to market it because people want to keep that exclusive and I I totally agree. Private. Yeah. But you know, kind of think about that. You know, if you're offering that is it you know, do the numbers Is it is it hurting you more than it's helping you

Michael Mowbray :

or you create a separate brand for it because I know people who have done that although I still I still am in the same boat as you are Dan i i don't think if you're a senior photographer, especially like us you wouldn't want to be doing you know, you wouldn't want to be crossing things over like that but on a different tangent headshots. We talked about bottle touched on a few times today. headshots is a big that's a big part of my business. It's a whole different ballgame from seniors and families and weddings and such. So I've created a separate brand. I've got a separate website for it. My regular website is beautiful portraits, calm, go there and book a session. Now you can't right now anyway. But my headshot businesses Madison headshots. So it's a link there is a link off of beautiful portraits calm to that, but a whole different pricing structure because the idea behind the headshot at least the way my business is set up is it's professional. It's quick, in and out. Done. So and it's all digital file. No, but I can't think of the last time I sold print for for a headshot session. How have you guys I have actually but it was really good. They liked it. Well, it was funny while you're maybe a five by seven for their wife or something right? Yeah.

Carl Caylor :

They wanted something for all they needed for the bank. And then they're like, hey, that's really nice Can Can I get a couple of these for my kids or for my, you know, I'm like, never had anybody asked before, I didn't know what to charge. I know.

Dan Frievalt :

And sticking with brand, but I've wanted to do for a while and I've had a few of these sessions. They're not extremely popular by no means but to create composites. And they're not really headshots, but they're, you know, they're more promotional imagery that describes an industry which is like you know, someone who's a welder for instance, and I, I we had like chalk chalk but um, coal and just metal and kind of, kind of all on his face and I he's holding a blowtorch. I have flames coming out of it, and I put him in a background that's like really cool and steampunk, looking or factory kind of looking and so I've done that and also I've done a few other things with a company in town that creates Really awesome. I don't know how to describe it but they create these seen see these things. They've made different things like Star Wars speeder bikes and stuff. And yeah, it's really cool. And so I create things and I really wanted to market more factories and then this whole thing hit again. You know, like going in, in the in. In my area, there's a lot of blue collar factories, selling nuts and bolts and selling paper and selling paper manufacturing machines. Well, let's create something that shows us engineer with the machine in the background or shows a cool kind of digital background. That's, you know, schematics even said that right? That's, you know, the engineering that's going on. It's just basically looking at what if you had a senior that was into this particular hobby, how am I going to create a composite that shows that Oh, and just stand out than the average?

Michael Mowbray :

headshot and, you know, it's it's something that I've played with and toyed with and done a little bit, but I would love to do more of that. Yeah, and I've done that with headshots. You know, I've been more so with high tech clients who were just you did a chef or something wants to this. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, I call it this personal branding is the way I brand it. And it's um, it's always a custom quote, there's a minimum order or minimum price I charge for it. Just, you know, people know what a starting price is. Yeah. And I had a personal chef come in and did a bunch of green screen stuff and some he wanted some kind of Gordon Ramsay looking kind of stuff. I'm like, Okay, let's not rip off Gordon Ramsay. But I get the idea what you want to do. And so we did a bunch of things. And he used that for his his personal chef brand. And now I follow him on Instagram. This guy's traveling all over the world. I mean, he's like in a different country as he's going to try to name the country I just saw him in but I couldn't remember what it was but he was in this Italy different country. Yeah, that was like in Northern Africa. I can't remember what it was not Morocco, but next to Morocco anyway. And I've done that with seniors too. I had a kid come in last year, that and this is going to tie into back into my ideal clients too, because he was kind of a nerdy kid. He wasn't in any sports. You know, I was former athlete too. Yes. I was a former athlete. Don't laugh at me.

Dan Frievalt :

The Nathan's hot dog eating contest.

Michael Mowbray :

champion. Dang it. I came in third in the region, anyway. No, no, seriously, no, but, you know, so I do enjoy working with athletes and doing sports stuff, but so it's still see a lot of those things and I'll come in and I'll get a kid that's nerdy or whatever. And they'll say, Well, I don't do any sports. I'm like, that's okay. Yeah, well, what do you like, what do you do? And it's like, well, not a lot. It's like, Well, where do you interested in what do you think about going to college for all I want to I want to be a chemical engineer. I'm like, oh, okay, so I don't know if you may have seen me post this before. But I pulled something from Adobe Stock with like, with different compounds and stuff. And like it was like a digital, almost like a white board, but not a white board with all these compounds on it, and he was drawing on it and all that kind of stuff. Same kind of concept where you can use some of these things where you can either create a background or source it in stock as long as you have the, you know, proper rights to use it and shoot something green screen and put somebody in there and tell a little bit more of their story beyond shooting them in from a background, you know, so that's where you can use like, my composite skills, your composite skills. Carl's got composite skills, too. Was was your seniors name Jesse. Jesse. No.

Dan Frievalt :

Breaking Bad reference there. No, it was. It was a stretch. It was a stretch. Yeah, well, yeah, cuz you're not breaking fit band. fan art No no.

Michael Mowbray :

Bitch thing I'm sure I'm sure I would like it. But it's too many seasons. And then everybody says, Well, the first seasons not that good, like what was suffered through a first season, just to be able to watch the other six or seven. So I'm like, only take a day and a half right now.

Unknown Speaker :

Nothing.

Michael Mowbray :

Man. That's actually probably our next our next podcast is talking about all the stuff we've been binge watching

Dan Frievalt :

everything I've been busy actually. And before we finish up, I want to give a shout out to our friend Nate Peterson, from Richmond, Wisconsin, because we've been talking a lot about you know, finding your customer persona and in photographing people you relate to and if you've ever seen his presentation, it's great because he talks about like what Michael was saying he's an athlete but yeah, the heat the the science like nerd kind of, you know, fans find you. Yeah, you really got into. And Nate is that way it's like, you know, he photographs is just normal kids and there's people who they're they're not the athlete and the jock and the most popular people and, you know, he's self proclaimed and said that wasn't him in high school. So he can, he is his niche is photographing those people that relate to him and, and kids connect to him. And his photography is great, and people love him because it is great. The experience is great, because he can relate to that high school senior and he can help shape and inform that senior and say, Hey, I'm just like you, I'm just a person that, you know, I text him the other day, like, how are you doing with everything? You know, how's it going? I'm thinking of you pre interview for you guys and stuff. And he's like, Ah, you know, I'm okay. And in fact, you know, I'm kind of used to this. I'm just kind of this, you know, reverting back to my ecologist. You know, I'm not I don't need to be around people and be you know, more Isolated kind of person, that's who he is. And that's his client persona. So don't feel like you have to be something that you're not you won't be successful if you're true to who you are. I think those are great closing words. Absolutely jot them Mike.

Michael Mowbray :

So, Mike is expensive Don't drop it. They are expensive. So this episode has been brought to you by Naga chili vodka. touted as the world's hottest vodka Naga chili vodka claims to be get this 250,000 scovilles hot for the makers product description. It's so horrendous. We suggest you don't even purchase it. Naga chili vodka and, as usual, this is a real liquor that's out there. Good chili

Dan Frievalt :

I think we need to start buying these things and testing them on air like they do on like the latest

Michael Mowbray :

I was watching I thought we should should send them my copies of the podcast and see while we're talking let's do stuff for free. They'll probably point Yeah, but you don't know the stuff we'll get for free is the Naga chili vodka or the dog, lamb. Lamb fishy thing. We have virtual a virtual shecky two. I'm not sure how to do it, but that would be funny actually. But it would be alright. Anyway. So that's all we got for this week. Thanks for tuning in. And as always, cheers to you.

Unknown Speaker :

Cheers. Last call.

Michael Mowbray :

You've been listening to the photo happy hour podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe button to not miss a single action packed episode. And join our photo happy hour Facebook group where we'll post links to the stuff we all talk about. You can find my MoLight gear online@www.go molight.com that's geo mo Li gh t calm You can find the Facebook page under MoLight store and I also run the Godox flash help group on Facebook. You can find Dan SR unlocked website at www dot seniors unlocked.com. That's seniors with an S at the end unlocked.com and the Facebook group under seniors unlocked and you can find Carl's coaching corner@www.cc photo coach comm cc photo coach.com Till next time, cheers to you.

Unknown Speaker :

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and give this fellowship the highest possible rating. do so with great haste fly you fools