Photo Happy Hour

The Murder Hornets of Photography

May 20, 2020 Michael Mowbray, Carl Caylor, Dan Frievalt Season 1 Episode 11
Photo Happy Hour
The Murder Hornets of Photography
Show Notes Transcript

Just when things couldn't get weirder...MURDER HORNETS! They actually sound worse than reality, and like many things, got a little overhyped. Which got us to thinking...and drinking: What's overhyped in the photography industry?  We made sure to get a good headstart on this Photo Happy Hour before we even hit the record button. You'll notice that when Carl realizes that we're actually recording after about 5 minutes. And Dan nearly strangles himself trying to pronounce "gypsy". Informative and entertaining, grab your favorite beverage and press "play".  And don't forget to subscribe!

Your Hosts:
Michael Mowbray, M. Photog., Cr., owns Beautiful Portraits by Michael in DeForest (Madison) Wisconsin and also owns MoLight. Learn more at:
www.beautifulportraits.com
www.gomolight.com

Dan Frievalt, M.Photog., M. Artist, Cr., owns Frievalt Photography in DePere (Green Bay) Wisconsin and also runs Seniors Unlocked. Learn more at
www.frievaltphotography.com
store.seniorsunlocked.com

Carl Caylor, M. Photog., Cr., ASP-Fellow, Kodak Alaris Mentor, owns Photo Images by Carl in Iron Mountain, Michigan and also runs Carl's Coaching Corner.  Learn more at:
www.photoimagesbycarl.net
www.ccphotocoach.com

MoLight offers more than 20 different MoLight -brand softboxes and modifiers.

Michael Mowbray :

Recorded live from the floor of Bob's country bunker. It's the photo happy hour podcast. Hey, and welcome everybody. I'm your photo happy hour bartender Michael Mowbray I'm popping the cork and pouring out some bubbly photography goodness. Joining me behind the bar Dan Frievalt and Carl Caylor say hey guys, Hey, what's up everyone? Hey everybody, how's it going? So what do you guys drinking today?

Dan Frievalt :

adult beverage. I have a red blend. It's called Black Gypsy. Black, white, black. Gypsy floppy. How much have you had already? Right? You know, we talked for a good amount of time before we started. Let's get this going. I'm gonna I'm gonna be off my chair. So, Gypsy Iron Horse vineyard near Kohler, Wisconsin. One of the few vineyards in Wisconsin that makes a dry wine not a sweet wine like the Door County, cherry wine and apple pie and all that kind of stuff. There's one other point that that does this thing does as well. And like I said, there's not many of them. There's not really, he kind of puts his nose up at the sweet wines. He makes some but because people want it, but he's like, he won't drink it. Yeah, I had a I had a good friend and neighbors like, Hey, you really like wine, don't you? I'm like, Well, yeah, well, we got something for you. And it was dark county cherry wine. I'm like, Yeah, thanks. It's been in the closet for 10 years. You can't even cook with that stuff. No, no, that's you're gonna pour it over ice cream or something. Okay, so anyway, if you're just joining us for the first time or even if you don't care, the premise of

Michael Mowbray :

The show is worth three professional photographers who have been around for a while and we get together and we drink and we talk about photography and the more we drink, the more we know and hopefully the more you learn, at least that's what we think. Do we Oh, we started writing. Oh, good. Okay. Yeah. We're gonna Welcome Carl to the show.

Dan Frievalt :

What are you drinking Carl?

Carl Caylor :

Back to the salted caramel whiskey from Tennessee. It was cold it was 12 degrees open. I was working outside today and I thought you know, it just feels right to warm me up from the inside. Yeah, it's may and snow in snow. It's snowing out east I we missed the snow. I don't Did you did you guys get snow? Oh, yeah, we got snow and it was snowed on after during the day today too. Yikes. Yeah, we had I thought it was frost because there's a frost morning. And so when I got up, I saw white stuff and that was frost and I look closer. I'm like

Dan Frievalt :

Oh, that's no.

Michael Mowbray :

It's because you put your snowblower away. I was gonna call you a bad word, but we're trying to keep this PG 13

Dan Frievalt :

I did I held off I was like, I need to cut the grass, but I know it's probably like Well, yeah, if it snows, I can shell away.

Michael Mowbray :

That's why I didn't snow here because I haven't run the gas out of my snowblower yet. There you go. That's why

Carl Caylor :

I've kept it away here. So how much it snows right now I refuse to shovel it. It's Yeah, melt. I don't care. You're

Michael Mowbray :

done. So every week in the show, we've got a topic and this week's topic we debated about and basically we're going to teach you how to photograph murder Hornets. This is actually ruinous. We're going to talk about the murder Hornets of photography. What do we mean by that? What kind of stuff is being overhyped in our industry, kind of like the murder Hornets

Carl Caylor :

people were talking about ads,

Michael Mowbray :

which murder horns are gonna be followed up by the chainsaw bears? Oh no. They have chainsaws for paws.

Carl Caylor :

They start chasing the chainsaws I give up. I yes. Totally, totally interesting trying to outrun them when they're unarmed. But you know if they have chainsaws, too, that's gonna be

Michael Mowbray :

well, I think that would slow them down a little bit. But anyway, anyway, what kind of stuff is do we feel this is all personal opinion. So don't take great offense at this if you have a, you know, have a piece of the action on any of this stuff, but people just want to put that disclaimer out there now, obviously, whatever the heck we want. What kind of stuff is baby oversold? overhyped? over a wall over something? You guys got any thoughts on that?

Carl Caylor :

You mean photography? Are we still talking about the bees and the virus?

Michael Mowbray :

Now those type of people are talking about that stuff. Let's talk about photography. So fans,

Carl Caylor :

you know, I remember back when I used to work In the darkroom, the color darkroom I know a lot of people work in black and white darkroom, but not as many people worked in the color darkroom. But in one of the labs I used to work for we had both c 41 and E six process. So he goes slides because I

Dan Frievalt :

don't like math. Yeah, it's math. But

Carl Caylor :

it's man. And vowel well involves too, you know, because he and six there no vowels and math at the same time, but it was four slide film, so positive versus negative film. But every once in a while, by accident, somebody would run the wrong the C 31. fell to the e6 or something like that. And you get this cross process and sometimes it actually looks kind of cool. You know, it gave you this washed out kind of off color, blue tint, which is what we can produce now with Nick or dx or something like that, Ron, but it's a fad. It was a fad. So for a while, people were calling into or Requesting, hey, this is I know this is c 41 film but can you run into your e6 so it gives us that funky color and washed out feel to it and everything and it was a fad. And we're seeing that same kind of fat a couple years back and senior photography where everything had to be blown out highlights and washed out and everything like that a couple years back. I'm still seeing it.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, it is still no you're right. And yellow skies and yellow skies, Busan.

Carl Caylor :

Yeah. And that's fine. It's cool. Right now it's a time capsule. The thing is that, you know, a few years maybe you don't like that, or maybe part of your family wants to see it for real, you know, True Colors show your true colors. So and that's why I like the extra you know, let's go back to a couple episodes ago and we were talking about apps or plugins and stuff like that. The fads that we see now can be produced with those plugins, but we can do it for real too and so I that's why in the photography world, most of the fads, I see, we can create them with a plugin that allows us to do things for real and fetish. So I just wanted to throw that into because oh,

Michael Mowbray :

you shoot her for real, but then you can always put a post process on it if somebody's demanding it. But it's important to have a quality, well exposed infocus image to start from, hmm, hmm, imagine imagine that.

Dan Frievalt :

Yeah. And also, like, I'm okay, being trendy and stuff for senior stuff, because it's kind of a trending market. Yeah, you know, you don't put it on every image, but there's certain images and the other thing, I find what trends or actions or looks or effects or textures, whatever you do, just try and make sure it matches the story. Because if you have like a portrait and it's lit and someone smile and looking at the camera, if you add a bunch of stuff on it, it doesn't matter. The story. So having more of a commercial looking or fashion looking image or looking away from the camera, just something where it, it makes sense to use that effect or that trendy look. You know, so that's kind of my take on that part.

Michael Mowbray :

Well, it goes hand in hand with shooting with intent. So you shoot with intent. So if you've got in mind that this is what you want to do with this particular image, then you pose it and light it with the thought process that you're going to do this kind of post process on later versus taking, like you said, Dan, a nice classic portrait and then putting across process look with a grunge Overlay and add some fog. All kinds of weird things. It just doesn't. It's not congruent. It just, it's visually visually jarring. And it doesn't make sense to anybody. Now, I don't want to I don't want to be down on anybody's creativity. But you know, there are things that look good. Thank you. Doubt and that's get off my lawn.

Dan Frievalt :

Yeah, purpose in what, like I did my webinar last night and talked about different effects and stuff and kind of how I ended the webinar is, is I tend to like, throw a bunch of stuff on an image, walk away, come back and see, take a few things off, you know, because it it's like once you let your eyes you can get get crazy putting stuff on, and it can go too far but they give you your eyes a little bit of break and realize Yeah, that's too much or that's too bright, or that doesn't look good. The composite doesn't look right, the shadows didn't look right, you know, so I usually say just kind of give it a little bit of break and and realize like, yeah, this is this is too much stuff on here. Let's take a few things off.

Michael Mowbray :

Kind of tagging into that as the whole thing. I think it's oversold and overhyped. Or like Lightroom presets or Photoshop actions where one click and it fixes it takes it from this to that It takes it from crap to beautiful. I'm like, Well, you know, maybe it did for that image. Is it going to do it for all your images? And then I'm always saying take this big giant step backwards. How about we get right in the camera, we say this over and over again, get it right in the camera. And then you don't have to buy this preset or this action to fix something where you didn't get enough light in the eyes. You didn't get enough light in the face. So then you're using this action that's trying to bring up the mid tones and bring up the shadows so you can paint some some dimension onto somebody's face. It's like well, gee, I don't know. We can shape light and do that to our actually pressing, pressing the pressure or pressuring your shutter

Carl Caylor :

to drink it too, but we never

Michael Mowbray :

scotch. I stayed up late last night Why a boy goes into my birthday.

Dan Frievalt :

Happy birthday. Cheers.

Carl Caylor :

You know, it's funny. Some of you know I just received the SP fellowship this year and I had attempted you folk full disclosure, I this is the third year I tried doing it and somebody had helped me out through the process and said, Hey, your black white work is is killing it. It just it doesn't work well with both black white and color. And they said, Go ahead just do everything in black and white. And for me, it was a very difficult fight with myself because I, the things that I do in black and white, were made to be black and white. They were created to be in black and white. When I before I press the button, I said this is I'm creating this image, this expression, this pose this everything to be a black and white image. And because there was other images now that they were weren't meant to be black and white, that there asked me to turn to black and white. I'll tell you what, that was a really difficult thing. But it really, that's how we should feel about everything. When we're creating, we're the artists, we're the controller of that image. And if there's a purpose, if there's a vision that you have for that one image of that person, and the next image of that same person might change, it could be something different. And maybe you do a cross process washout thing with that with the next image and a black and white or the third one, or a color or something really vibrant and oversaturated. That's fine. That's variety. That's wonderful. But but specifically, create with a purpose for each image that you are producing for that person.

Michael Mowbray :

taking us in a little different tangent now. There's a lot of gear. I mean, in this industry, as we all know, there's a lot of gear but

Dan Frievalt :

before he hit that tangent, I was just going to give my input on black and white and when I use it in

Michael Mowbray :

a video Let me read let me rewind what I said to the brokers out.

Carl Caylor :

There. Okay, go ahead. Good job.

Dan Frievalt :

That was very good. I think I heard like some now forget it. My album backwards kind of stuff. Exactly. Yeah. So so my theory of black and white is similar to call it Carl's see I'm drunk. A good week that used to be a good one. It's very similar except for one small difference. And if I can't get good color, good skin color, I just change it to black. A lot more, a lot more with weddings, because you're fighting a lot of different color casts and stuff. So it'd be like, yep, this is gonna be black and white. Or if the image you know, was really great, but you know, they're cutting the cake and I didn't quite lock in focus and the colors suck because it was in a dark room and they gave me five minutes I had Yeah, it's like Okay, not only is it going to be black and white, it's gonna be black and white with a green filter. Okay, great.

Michael Mowbray :

So I just wanted to add that before we shifted gears. Now I always call that blacking. It's because we have an old friend was one of the best wedding photographers in Wisconsin, Greg black. And I remember talking to Greg one time, we were at a wedding show. And I said, Man, you just you just have you shifted all the black and white because everything you're showing is black and white, like, you know, is just a fine art approach. You know, it's like, I can't get good color out of these cameras and we're all mixed light situation. So I just take everything in as a black and white button looks good to me. So just just black it is what I call it.

Carl Caylor :

Like it. I haven't heard in a long time.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, all the time. He's retired and driving school bus and having a good time. He's actually likes driving the school bus. Wow. My wife is a fantastic wedding photographer. Yes. Just a great artist, I think overall.

Carl Caylor :

Absolutely. I mean, he was an artist. That was a wedding photographer. Yep.

Michael Mowbray :

So changing back to where I was two minutes ago. Thanks, Dan. So much. We've got so much gear in this in this industry. We're so geared dependent. There's a lot of good stuff. And there's a lot of like, really questionable stuff out there. And so it just keeps getting pushed, pushed and pushed. And a couple of things come to mind and I'll see if anything comes to mind for you guys. But one of the first things that comes to mind for me is ring lights. Oh, oh, yeah.

Carl Caylor :

They said a lot. I'm sorry.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah. Whoo. And I bought one. I mean, I'm I first was looking at ring lights back in like 2010 2011 was like, oh, that might be kind of interesting. And I bought a couple and I used them twice and never use them again, because I personally didn't really care for the catch lights in the eyes. And then I found that they really weren't utilitarian for other kinds of lights. You know, they didn't make a good main light if you took it off axis it's a weird looking light. It just I don't know. What do you what how do you guys feel about that?

Dan Frievalt :

Well, my Yeah, my story with ring lights is I I made my own because I was cheap. And so I well you made a big one I made it I was huge and, and I use it for several years and I really liked it and then I just felt like I needed to be more professional. I'm going to buy the smaller one and it's going to have a more consistent light. So what mine had we actually call it the diamond light. It had several light bulbs in it that went around in circle you can't see the action I'm making here but it would actually make the catch lights in the eyes. were more we call it like a diamond is more of a branded thing, but it would instead of leaving like a look like a cat. I kind of weird catching the alien like the solid circle it would have little dots. They weren't as intense. The other thing is, is I made it. So I could photograph with a portrait lens. The smaller one when I got that, and it's so small, I had to use a wide angle lens, and I'm doing portraits, and it's distorting the face on top of giving the alien catch light in the eyes. And the worst part of all of this is people wouldn't notice it. When, and that's back when I did when we did proofs, so that it was a four by six proof, they wouldn't notice the catch light. They would order a wall portrait, we'd order it get it in, they have it there, they come pick it up, and they'd be like, let's put the eyes What did you do to

Michael Mowbray :

the eyes? Yes. Ah,

Dan Frievalt :

that was in there, but they didn't notice it, you know. So I actually sold the smaller ring light and went back to my diamond light. I use it rarely, but it's I still kind of I dig that look, because I can do a lot more with it. And it doesn't look so freakish, I guess.

Michael Mowbray :

Well, you're the one you made though. How How wide is that? How far across is that?

Dan Frievalt :

Yeah, it's wide it's a well it's a four or five feet. It's two feet by two feet because it's a half of sheet of plywood cut. Okay, cut in half and then cut cut it into a circle. So yeah, it's, it's large, I mean I can use a 70 to 200 in it. And, and again, it doesn't leave the it's not so bright and it doesn't have the consistent roundness so it's it gives kind of the ring like look in the flat light look without having that weird kind of diamond light look but it's huge is China ginormous. You know, but there is and you don't really get good edge lights. So I had made like LED, you know, edge lights to kind of go with it. You know, but the

Michael Mowbray :

color on them was usually pretty weird. Yeah, I found that short cast. Colors are cheaper.

Carl Caylor :

You know, the thing is a fad. I mean, it's, it had a purpose and it may still have a purpose, depending on the person but it's just like We were saying before, there isn't a plugin that is hit and it works for everything. There's specific purposes for each particular image in a ring like just almost like glamour lighting, I mean do glamour light everybody or let everybody know, but if they have the facial features for it then fine and it can be very flattering. But if they don't have the facial fat or features which is mostly the case, it's not flattering and that's in essence Our job is to flatter the person so by you know, is the ring late bad thing No, it's just you have less of an audience that you can use it for and still make it flattering to that person

Michael Mowbray :

right isn't when I guess maybe I'm reacting more to it's like use it for everything. I was like Well no, maybe use it for once a month. Yeah, it's

Dan Frievalt :

a it's a special specialty light and right. If you guys watched the, the NFL Draft, which was very And they everyone, they must have gave ring lights to every single suppose you noticed that I mean maybe only photographers notice that but they get ring lights at all the draft prospects and they're doing interviews and they have it and not only is though are those ring lights small but they they put them further away so they could put the camera in and so you don't even have the catch light in the iris of the eye so it just even looks more alien weirdness but

Carl Caylor :

did you guys happen to watch the voice? No live voice because they can't do live you know? Shut off so we

Dan Frievalt :

avoid the sport no spoiler alerts because we do have it recorded okay.

Carl Caylor :

It's not gonna say anything but who underneath or who's it's the the contestants were all given mic equipment and video equipment with lighting. So with instructions and they showed a behind the scenes of the judges you know so john legend and Carrie and or whatever the judges whatever they showed him trying to put together their kids it was got the light in it what how for of course Blake couldn't even open this stupid case, right but it was they they supplied him with some pretty nice stuff actually. Well they're doing broadcast they're supposed to be doing

Michael Mowbray :

broadcast stuff so yeah what blows me away is you're seeing all these live things and it's in its shit. It's like some of those like the like the late night guys doing their their late night shows at home. Some of them are fairly good and some of them are I watch a Jimmy Fallon one night. Oh my god audio and the lighting was horrible. It just

Carl Caylor :

goes to show ya that it's not just the equipment the people running. Right, right.

Dan Frievalt :

Right. Yeah. As well

Carl Caylor :

as fancy equipment up, but if you're not people that know what to do with it is doesn't do a whole lot of good.

Dan Frievalt :

Yeah, and speaking of equipment, a lot of times the question will come up, you know, do I get a ring light or like an eye lighter, and you know, kind of back and forth. I mean, I would always recommend the eye lighter in there, you know, you have so much more versatility like Michael was saying, you know, the ring light works well for certain, like very few sessions, but I lighter, it can work for a lot of different sessions from seniors to headshots, and just as a beautiful luck, a more a glamour look that fits more facial features, maybe, I mean, maybe

Carl Caylor :

it's more I use it for just about every headshot, I shoot in the studio. I'll use it for most of my seniors in the studio. It can work with more modifiers too, that's the thing. You can use it with a four by six or a two by three and get very nice results with With it, so it's way more versatile and as a as a piece of equipment and it's also more versatile. As far as how many people it's going to be flattering to. So yeah, you can use it with lights, butter and butterfly position, you can use it with them in short, light, broad light

Michael Mowbray :

wherever you want. Now, you could use it seriously, you could use it with badger lighting. You could double edge light from behind and put the AI letter below and it gives you a weird, interesting look. But is that what you're saying? It's a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. But it's, I mean, first for that kind of look. I wouldn't do it for a whole session but you want something with some edge to it. Sure. could do that. So another piece of gear that are listed category of gear. And this is something I spent years struggling through working on buying hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of stuff. speedlight modifiers. How do you take that Hard speed light. We're wedding photographer, or an event photographer. How do you take that hard, small speed light and make it look better? And everybody's like, Oh, I just want this nice big soft light out of my speed light. Well, a it's a small, hard light source. Good luck. So I bought into like the light sphere. I had the original light sphere, which was made out of hard plastic. And everybody you can drink wine out of it. Well, that's everybody came up to me. I'd like receptions. Guys who who how much beer can you put in a beer cup? Yeah.

Dan Frievalt :

Tupperware Do you have the extra chicken from the

Michael Mowbray :

I would put a piece of cake into the take home. The hard plastic one I remember falling off my speedlight onto a marble floor at a church Creek for a while. Wow, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Unknown Speaker :

Like oh, that sucks.

Unknown Speaker :

How's it going, Michael? Actually, I was

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, well That's pretty much the sound to bait. It's not perfect, but light spheres and all that kind of stuff. All these contraptions you strap on to your speed light, you know, the best. The best thing I found a card, a card while basically a little bit better than a card, a piece of foam paper, you go to Michaels and I actually used to make these for people because you can get the you can get the white, the white foam paper and the black foam paper and glue them together. And then you could use it. You just put a hair tie or something to hold on to your flash. And then you can move it around if you want to bounce it some way want to kick it forward. You can use it like a Snoop. I always had female assistants they always have hair ties. Yes, yes.

Dan Frievalt :

I don't you guys always from yo.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, I can remember I used to call them. I used to call them something. No, it was like the mo balance or something like that.

Dan Frievalt :

It wasn't mo related. No,

Unknown Speaker :

it was it was no Primo to follow. She flashed bouncer bounced

Michael Mowbray :

back and see what I call those but it's right

Dan Frievalt :

now it's retired in my box at cords that I refused the you know throughout which we've mentioned a few episodes I might need it someday I might Yeah, I might need it might go back to that weddings. Yeah.

Michael Mowbray :

So if you if you hear this and you want the recipe for that just email me or message me and I can tell you how to make one I bought a bunch of like because I wanted to be able to form it and keep it have a keep shape. So you know those little aluminum ties you get on coffee bags, you know, they kind of seal them back up. You can buy bulk of those I used to glue those in there so that I could form it and have it stay in certain shapes and then flatten it back out.

Dan Frievalt :

It was a nice design. I also came with this new t I do remember this new t

Unknown Speaker :

yes my beard warm to

Unknown Speaker :

warm yeah

Dan Frievalt :

Easy. Oh yeah,

Unknown Speaker :

England.

Carl Caylor :

No just out in the lake.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, if you want to know to snooty is it's just a basically a black beer form cooler kind of thing that you can put on the end of your speedlight and you can snoot the light and keep it from flaring if you're using it as a kicker, and then you can put your beer and when you're done shooting, so it's it's a snoot. It's a koozie it's the snoot see Yeah.

Dan Frievalt :

And speaking of speedlights this may be an unpopular

Michael Mowbray :

koozies

Dan Frievalt :

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I am I have never been a fan of speed lights

Michael Mowbray :

for a man I wrote two books on speed lights. I know I'm

Dan Frievalt :

well when you have now things have changed if you have a 200 that is, you know, not much larger than speed light. What is it six eight times the power

Unknown Speaker :

three times? It's over three times. Yeah,

Dan Frievalt :

I'm drunk. So everything's you know, it's it's math. Yes. As much good or as much good or it has rechargeable battery, it's like, it's so much better. And yes, you can't put it on your camera, you put the 360 on your camera, but you just the speed light just doesn't have enough power to do what I needed to do, and run a lot of a lot of maybe beginning photographers, it's like, I'll get a speedlight. It's inexpensive, but you find out real quickly. There's not much you can do with it.

Michael Mowbray :

Not a lot of utility, and I made a pretty good living, trying to find utility for speed lights, but the reason like you alluded to is we didn't have battery powered flashes that were any more powerful than a speed light. And if

Dan Frievalt :

they did, they didn't have high speed sync and TTL exact functionality. Yes, yes, exactly.

Michael Mowbray :

So there were times I was ganging for four to eight of those together. It was crazy. That was a lot of batteries. People still do that. I

Carl Caylor :

still see post. Sure.

Dan Frievalt :

Right. And look at the expense of that.

Carl Caylor :

Yeah. You could save half the price or more just by one damn late.

Michael Mowbray :

All right, when, you know when pro photo came out with the whatever the B one, and everybody's saying, well that's $2,000 or 20 $100 I'm like, I used to take for Canon 600 Xr tees that were two when they came out there were $600 apiece. Yep, that's 20 $400 Okay, then you put power packs on those. Add on another, I don't know, four or 500 bucks, not $3,000 up on the stand.

Dan Frievalt :

Not to mention the rechargeable batteries, rechargeable

Michael Mowbray :

batteries. So I call the antelopes you would i would charge 96 antelopes before a wedding

Carl Caylor :

plus is nuts. Now the recycle time by at all,

Michael Mowbray :

not even remotely close. And you're shooting them bear. You know, because it's hard to put four speed lights on a softbox

Carl Caylor :

without contrasting something. Yeah, so that's the nice thing too is that the speedlight company Compared to what we have now everything can be placed in whatever modifier we want. Yeah, you couldn't do that before. No, no, I mean, this is we haven't made guys we haven't made

Unknown Speaker :

Mac in my day we used to have

Michael Mowbray :

to take a lantern and throw extra kerosene in it and

Dan Frievalt :

like that one of the best stories is Joey Lawrence when he he talked about he said a speedlight and he like either kind of forged a softbox or forgot it and he was on location and I think book this band and everything and he's like 16 years old. He's like, yeah, so I took a cardboard box that I found in the pillowcase from the hotel I was staying and I made a softbox that kind of home stuck this P light in it and photograph was gigantic At The Disco and I you know did my effects too.

Unknown Speaker :

It's not a big deal.

Michael Mowbray :

Now you see use those the phone beer coolers like you take out in the ice fishing yeah shanty easily use those too. Yeah.

Carl Caylor :

most fun thing about Joe is that he's so creative as to how he creates the images. The images himself are phenomenal and creative. But the behind the scenes I mean, I would just like to just be a fly on the wall watch and see how am I going to make this light work this time? The stories I've heard him tell are just phenomenal. I love it, you know, just find a solution to the issue at hand. It's it's a great thing. So what other stuff is oversold? overhyped? overblown over fad? retouching? Oh, gosh, yeah. retouching? Yeah, and actually, it's funny because that's changing now it's swinging back to less plasticky for a while, you know everyone was pressing the button and making it you know, it can the one one push of a button to retouch and now I think society our clientele is pushing back. Finally, saying I've had several over the last few years come in and say hey, you don't do retouch and do you and I'm like, we What do you mean? I clean up blemishes and you know don't worry you're not gonna have acne like that's not what I mean. They're not gonna look plastic are they? I'm like no no, we do it and

Dan Frievalt :

they call it airbrushing now

Unknown Speaker :

don't do

Carl Caylor :

all they call it photoshopping now they just say you're not gonna Photoshop basically, oh, I'm absolutely gonna Photoshop work in Photoshop, but I'm not gonna make people look like they aren't. You know, so I mean, in my mind that the whole philosophy of retouching is this. Anything that is there on the day of recording that isn't going to be there in two weeks, that's taken care of so any blemishes and if there's any scars or smile lines or bags under the Eyes. We can soften them to the point to a point. scars I leave on. Yep. But we soften them a little bit if Molly Molly, Molly, Molly, Molly, Molly's Emily's on my take the hair off the Molly, Molly, but like you without it. Yeah. So, you know, but there's certain skill sets or craftsmanship to retouching that doesn't change the shape of the face that you so purposefully lit to make sure that they were lit in a fashion or produced light and shadow in a way that flattered that person. And then you go and flatten it with retouching. Yeah, doesn't make a lot of sense. But people are catching on to that. I mean, I'm seeing it a lot in the clientele out there. So just FYI, the the one button push stuff. That's, that's that fat is over. Oh God,

Unknown Speaker :

you

Carl Caylor :

got to learn how to work with a person's facial features.

Michael Mowbray :

Yeah, I mean, I even take it to the other direction. If I'm, if somebody wants a higher level retouch is I'm actually putting in highlights and shadows and adding more depth and contour, then the one button push to make things flat.

Dan Frievalt :

Yeah, and I, you know, like I outsource a lot of my stuff, which removes the blemishes and maybe softens the eyebags, remove some flyaways and things like that. But then, when it comes back to me, I'm doing the final edits, the color grading and the different effects. I know you can outsource that as well. But just kind of keep in mind if you make your style dependent on that look in that company goes under that. Whoever that artist is online that you don't know, quits, like you weren't going to be able to create your signature look, because you've never you are not responsible for that. So

Michael Mowbray :

it wasn't your signature luck. It was somebody else's. Yeah,

Dan Frievalt :

yeah. So I mean, it's it's good. It's all I mean, I guess it's alright to start that way but then work pretty quickly to try and develop that style your own. Yeah, that's all I got to say about that.

Carl Caylor :

Let's start with some clothing. Because one of the things I I saw and I know you guys were really into it for a while too and I actually dove in and bought one but the parachute golden parachute dress, okay? Which is by the way, a parachute parachute. So when you look for him if you get on the fad right now, which is kind of late in the game, but if you do, you're looking for a natural parachute, you know, looking for a parachute dress, just you know,

Michael Mowbray :

right down and you have to make it into a dress. I mean, there's a there's some steps involved there.

Carl Caylor :

Yes, that's another I see fad that's kind of withering away a little bit.

Dan Frievalt :

It is but the crazy thing is, is I still have like last year I did a workshop in my studio and had photographers come in and I call them the past senior and She's like, I always love that image, you know, on your wall of the parachute dress. I love it. I love it. I love it. I'm like, well, let's do it for the workshops. I pull it out. I haven't used it in years, you know. And so for her, it was new. And it was, you know, for us as photographers, we've seen it maybe a lot. But, you know, maybe you're maybe no one has done it in your area, or maybe the seniors it's new to them. Same thing with my funky fashion. I felt like I was kind of doing the kind of the same thing even though the looks were different. But every girl that came in wanted it because it was new to them. So yeah, that's kind of, you know, so as far as fads, or whatever it is, that's kind of different that way, I guess.

Michael Mowbray :

I think we're running out of gas.

Carl Caylor :

So I tell my seniors, because that's really what we're really pushed towards the most. But with seniors, you know, I always tell people I want to see at least one top. It's long sleeve solid color that I can do things that are more timeless with. But after that, if mom's yellow nacha to clean it up off the floor because you were in it all the time. I want it. I want what we do to be a time capsule. And if it's a fad, so be it. Because we want to see what happened in 2020. Yeah, maybe we don't want to see that actually. Come to think of it. But other years, we want to see what's

Dan Frievalt :

going on. I'll be facemask

Carl Caylor :

exactly yardsticks holding itself away from each other. But I you know, I would I would love to have a photograph of my mom in a poodle skirt. But it doesn't exist because senior photographers back in that day. They photograph the headshot with a drape and that was it. They took a head on shot, turn to the left turn the right till the next person to come in. it's their turn. That was it. You know, so I think what we're doing now, a lot of what we do each year is a fad, but it's a fad for 2019 a fad for 2020 it's the time capsule showing what they were going through at that time in their life. So some things that we think are fads are really necessary to record, because it's really history.

Dan Frievalt :

I agree. 100% I'm glad you said that, because I thought it was just me that thought that but it's like, you see these people get on rants like I create timeless portraits and you want to look back in 20 years and not know what was photographed 20 years I'm like, No, I do. I for senior photographers, I want you said a great Carl time capsule. You know, it's like that hairstyles not going to be in style anymore. Just because they wore something timeless, you lit and photographed at timeless, the hairstyle is going to be out of date. Even their outfit probably is gonna be out of date. Unless like there's just a black outfit or drape like you said, Well, how fun is that? Like, let's, you know and in this challenge, not challenged, but this thing was going around on Facebook. You know, a couple weeks ago were in support of the class. 2020 push to your senior pictures and I love that because I you know, I love seeing, you know, there's some debate if it actually was supporting

Michael Mowbray :

this right or why it was more like taunting today's seniors like look, we got to do Ha.

Dan Frievalt :

But I feel like I already photographed the class of 2020 but so they got that part down but I love seeing the photos I love seeing the hairstyles, the the the way things are recorded, the the cars that they were with, like all the sets the props, and I was wicked sure I was even gonna make a joke. It's like, hey, photographers are 2020 if you want to create a new style, look at what these images were 20 years ago, you know, because it all comes back, you know, flares and fog and gels and wicker, you know, the big numbers, you know, class of 2020 to form letters like like, you really want to create a style, bring something that was done 20 years ago, and just only it and you will be like, it'll catch on. It'll be a fad.

Michael Mowbray :

The big fad for this year my prediction, big hair, take care. Nobody can get their hair.

Carl Caylor :

So they're gonna be mine.

Michael Mowbray :

Did you guys see that? Yeah, I'm about do again. But they're gonna be teasing that hair up big style,

Dan Frievalt :

style all the 80s big hair. I mean, I love that I love seeing those images man have brought back memories. It's like, it was cut off. It couldn't fit on the crop anymore. You know? How high could you get your hair? You know, parents will come in and we'll talk about that stuff. And they're like, Oh, yeah, it was a good day. If I got in my car to drive to school and my bangs were hitting the headlines. Awesome. So I'm gonna mention something that again might be kind of, you know, this is controversial, right? But we're in workshops. That's Can worms right? And more like, let's say portfolio building workshops? Oh god. Yeah. You know, because there's workshops where you go when you learn, and that's great. And there's workshops. So you go and you build your portfolio. And if you want, and both can be beneficial. But really, if you're going and you're taking whatever workshop you go to, and you, you study under someone, and you've, you photograph over their shoulder, they put the workshop together, they let the subject they, they brought the subject in that subject could have modeling experience, clothing, hair, makeup, everything, like anyone can slide in with even an iPhone, take a photo, and it's gonna look pretty darn good. Right, using those images to learn. That's totally fine. But I've seen a lot of times people will put those images on their website, but they can't really produce that work. So what kind of, you know, what kind of brand are you putting out there and now People are even lazy, they're not even going to workshops. They're just stealing photos and building away. You know, so I guess this is maybe a moot point, but, but something that keep in mind, you know, or if you have those images mixed in with your everyday work, it's pretty obvious that like, what's the desert?

Carl Caylor :

There's a big chasm between them. Yeah. I was pretty popular at after dark because of that. Because Yeah,

Dan Frievalt :

and Dave was a big like, don't just go in and portfolio build, learn, learn, learn, you know, and then some people get upset. Yeah, or they'll say like, Well, after the after the instructor left I took a model to a pod and I lit it and did it myself.

Michael Mowbray :

Like that's exactly what you kind of

Carl Caylor :

want to see but he doesn't want to

Dan Frievalt :

see but you still didn't you still have the model the hair the makeup so it's there was still some a lot of work involved that you didn't have a piece of. And Ryan if you can reproduce it. Yes. You know,

Michael Mowbray :

that's still better than shooting over the instructors shoulder Yeah. clickety clickety Click what I did I did in Cincinnati before this whole shutdown was a blast teaching thing I did is I took my LEDs into this shooting Bay Area and and set it up and did some demos and then I moved the lights and said okay you guys go on you go go work the model and what everybody I swear to god everybody did they walked in and just held up the camera started shooting I'm gonna go after like 30 seconds of this. I'm like, Why wait, what are you guys doing? What we're just shooting what you had set up was like this isn't set up. I had it set up and I was lighting the model and then I move the lights. So you guys could go and set the lights where you want them to be. They were not set to be good portrait lights at the time. I just moved them off to the side but they're shooting like crazy. Exactly what was going on or people

Carl Caylor :

set it up photograph but then I take all the lights all lighting setup, and I shoved them in a corner say now go because others You're not learning anything, you know, mostly doing math along with the teacher during class, but you get home and you're like,

Michael Mowbray :

ah,

Carl Caylor :

how did I do this again, instead of trying to, because we've talked about this a lot before you get back from a workshop and Dennis some great ideas about, you know, scheduling to somebody before you leave for the workshops, you have somebody to go back for and try out. So you're, you're you're already scheduled to try something that you learned. But instead of and that's one of the big things that that we tried to do in my classes is, I don't want you to have to do this at home. I want you learning right here in front of me right in front of God and the rest of students and everybody, what we're talking about right now, we're putting you on the spot right now, because that's how you learn. So when you go home, you already have done it 10 times 18 times before you left the workshop, the workshops that go out that like you said that are quote unquote portfolio. builders, you know, we're watching and recording, but we're not educating we're not learning. So you got to choose wisely as to what's going to help you the most in your business and in your, your future in photography. When you played sports, did the coach, you know, show you how to run the route and then he went out and ran the route and then you were supposed to practice the route at home. Or did you the coach tell you how to run the route and then you had to go run the route or they put you in the tackling drill and you had to tackle the running back. The coach was in tackling the running back, right.

Michael Mowbray :

I used to love those two. I like the ones where you had to like run we used to put down with the tackling dummies you had to hop over the dummies and beat the running back. Oklahoma drill. It was awesome.

Unknown Speaker :

It was cold. Okay.

Dan Frievalt :

What was the one that you both like crashing each other then we had to

Carl Caylor :

lay in your back and you they tossed a ball on you get up and go That was called the concussion drill.

Michael Mowbray :

I believe I had once or twice.

Carl Caylor :

That kind of explains a lot, actually. Oh,

Michael Mowbray :

man, I still get. Yeah.

Carl Caylor :

But it was still fun.

Michael Mowbray :

You guys say some? Yeah. I feel in my head right now.

Dan Frievalt :

It's the scotch doc.

Unknown Speaker :

No noise.

Michael Mowbray :

So remember one hit Oh god. Yeah.

Carl Caylor :

Helmet to helmet. This is this this latest like referral to the adult beverages that we had goes out to that. I can't remember who it was that posted on our Facebook site that said that she watched it or she listens to the podcast when she's out on a walk. And she can tell later and the

Unknown Speaker :

drinks are going down. This is for you.

Michael Mowbray :

Sometimes the drinks are going down pretty fast. Before we even hit hit the record button. We almost forgot to hit the record button today. We were talking for about 20 minutes like oh, we should probably do a podcast here. Carl joined us five minutes later

Carl Caylor :

Well, I didn't know we were recording yet. Oh, times today

Unknown Speaker :

three times.

Michael Mowbray :

Anyway, so if you guys have any, any burning questions, any topics you would like to have us covered in a podcast I mean we keep coming up with stuff. But you know, we'd welcome any recommendations if you want to message us with them or even better go into our our Facebook group, which is photo happy hour podcast. I think it's just photo happy hour is what the group is called. And just to make any suggestions there, we always take a look at those and then we go, No, or we might even like it. We might even

Dan Frievalt :

we might even do it. Or if you want to send us a bottle of liquor so that speaking of that, I'm and I'm empty. I'd say

Michael Mowbray :

I'm getting there too. And it's like fish Friday night for me. So, today's podcast has been brought to you by hoppy ending Pale Ale from Palo Alto Brewing Company. hoppy ending Pale Ale is a traditional West Coast style Pale Ale with citrus and floral notes characteristic of West Coast hops. It's full bodied and complex and may cost a little more to get a happy ending, but it's worth it.

Carl Caylor :

Please, please tell me you get that at a bar, not a massage parlor.

Michael Mowbray :

It's a favorite, favorite beer. Robert Kraft. Okay. Here's one for your patriot fans. Anyway, that's our that's our, our sponsor. And that's our parting shots. So, from all of us to you, cheers to you. Cheers. Cheers.

Unknown Speaker :

Last call.

Michael Mowbray :

You've been listening to the photo happy hour podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe button to not miss a single action packed episode and join our photo happy hour Facebook group where we'll post links to the stuff we all talk about. You can find my MoLight gear online@www.go mo lytx. com. That's geo mo Li gh t comm you can find the Facebook page under MoLight store and I also run the Godox flash health group on Facebook. You can find Dan SR unlocked website at www dot seniors unlocked.com that seniors with an S at the end unlocked.com and the Facebook group under seniors unlocked and you can find Carl's coaching corner@www.cc photo coach calm cc photo coach.com till next time cheers to you.

Gandalf :

If you have enjoyed this episode please subscribe and give this fellowship the highest possible rating. do so with great haste fly you foods