Words can be fun. In fact, some of us use them everyday! In this episode we interview photography copywriter extraordinaire Kimberley Anderson. A veteran of the grueling wedding photography wars, Kimberley pivoted pre-Covid to focus on her other passion: crafting the right words for photographers. In this episode you will learn what should be in your bio (and what should NOT be -- I'm looking at you, coffee and yoga), and what common mistakes most photographers make when they attempt to write more gooder. Along the way you'll learn the secret to making a Russian Margarita, how to make a bride's shadow look fat, and why Kimberley won't pay for your gelato bar.
You can learn more about Kimberley Anderson at www.redcurlcreative.com. You can also join her Facebook group "Write Better Words" at https://www.facebook.com/groups/writebetterwords.
Informative and entertaining, grab your favorite beverage and press "play". And don't forget to subscribe!
Your Hosts:
Michael Mowbray, M. Photog., Cr., owns Beautiful Portraits by Michael in DeForest (Madison) Wisconsin and also owns MoLight. Learn more at:
www.beautifulportraits.com
www.gomolight.com
Dan Frievalt, M.Photog., M. Artist, Cr., owns Frievalt Photography in DePere (Green Bay) Wisconsin and also runs Seniors Unlocked. Learn more at
www.frievaltphotography.com
store.seniorsunlocked.com
Carl Caylor, M. Photog., Cr., ASP-Fellow, Kodak Alaris Mentor, owns Photo Images by Carl in Iron Mountain, Michigan and also runs Carl's Coaching Corner. Learn more at:
www.photoimagesbycarl.net
MoLight offers more than 20 different MoLight -brand softboxes and modifiers.
Words can be fun. In fact, some of us use them everyday! In this episode we interview photography copywriter extraordinaire Kimberley Anderson. A veteran of the grueling wedding photography wars, Kimberley pivoted pre-Covid to focus on her other passion: crafting the right words for photographers. In this episode you will learn what should be in your bio (and what should NOT be -- I'm looking at you, coffee and yoga), and what common mistakes most photographers make when they attempt to write more gooder. Along the way you'll learn the secret to making a Russian Margarita, how to make a bride's shadow look fat, and why Kimberley won't pay for your gelato bar.
You can learn more about Kimberley Anderson at www.redcurlcreative.com. You can also join her Facebook group "Write Better Words" at https://www.facebook.com/groups/writebetterwords.
Informative and entertaining, grab your favorite beverage and press "play". And don't forget to subscribe!
Your Hosts:
Michael Mowbray, M. Photog., Cr., owns Beautiful Portraits by Michael in DeForest (Madison) Wisconsin and also owns MoLight. Learn more at:
www.beautifulportraits.com
www.gomolight.com
Dan Frievalt, M.Photog., M. Artist, Cr., owns Frievalt Photography in DePere (Green Bay) Wisconsin and also runs Seniors Unlocked. Learn more at
www.frievaltphotography.com
store.seniorsunlocked.com
Carl Caylor, M. Photog., Cr., ASP-Fellow, Kodak Alaris Mentor, owns Photo Images by Carl in Iron Mountain, Michigan and also runs Carl's Coaching Corner. Learn more at:
www.photoimagesbycarl.net
MoLight offers more than 20 different MoLight -brand softboxes and modifiers.
Recorded live from the liquor department at Piggly Wiggly. It's the photo happy hour podcast. Hey, and welcome everybody come on in and grab a seat. I'm your photo happy hour. bartender Michael Mowbray and I'm pouring two for one shots of photography know how today. Joining me behind the bar are Dan Frievalt and Carl Caylor. Say Hey, guys.
Dan Frievalt:Hey guys, what's up, everyone?
Michael Mowbray:So what do you guys drinking? What's on your happy hour agenda?
Dan Frievalt:I have whiskey, a whiskey. Well, I was gonna I did pour a red wine but it went hold went went bad on me. It's like vinegar. So I had to switch to Chardonnay, so I would be here on time.
Michael Mowbray:That's got enough sugar. That'll last for a while too.
Dan Frievalt:Yes.
Michael Mowbray:Yeah. The Tennessee whiskey girl.
Carl Caylor:I do. Tennessee whiskey.
Michael Mowbray:The watermelon. Nice. Sour. No balls are what I couldn't. This is the Sour Patch Kid whiskey.
Carl Caylor:Yeah, that's the one.
Michael Mowbray:Anyway. Wow, we're just like rolling right along today, aren't we?
Carl Caylor:Well, let's drink and we got an unreleased drink.
Michael Mowbray:Well, I got to introduce her. Nobody knows she's here yet. So anyway. Hey, right. I
Carl Caylor:don't I won't spill the beans and I'm sorry.
Michael Mowbray:Okay. Hang on. I gotta pull up her bio here. But I'm gonna I'm going to do you know?
Dan Frievalt:Was that stuff? Boy, this is fine. fine tuned. Here we go. Like the first record. I didn't have like a well oiled machine.
Kimberley:I'm feeling right at home right now.
Michael Mowbray:Yeah, well, I blame you because you threw us all off. Okay, well, we'll edit all this out, obviously.
Carl Caylor:No, leave it just leave it. This is good stuff.
Michael Mowbray:All right, if you're joining us for the first time or the 22nd time, the premise of this podcast is we are three professional photographers who have been around for a while, and we might know a thing or two. And the important thing is we drink and the more we drink, the more we know. So and every week we have a topic, except for the weeks where we don't. And this is a week where we don't we've actually got a guest. We have an interview. Yes, yes. And who is our interview? This is Yeah, she's interviewing for a job this we're representing the state of Wisconsin and you're on you're applying for unemployment.
Kimberley:No. Hear me throw now triggered you triggered already trigger me a bride DWT.
Michael Mowbray:Today, our guest is Kimberly Anderson. She is she's been a photographer for many, many years, cut her teeth in the wedding industry starting as a waitress at the age of 16. at weddings at a country club, and I'm assuming over in the Milwaukee area. So you've done all kinds of things. You've photographed all kinds of things, but a few years back you said screw that and you shifted and now you're into like the word side you're tapping back into your your Stephen UW Stevens Point roots in was an English degree. Is that
Kimberley:good? Yeah, I actually got a degree in English that I never used until now. My mother's super proud. Well, Nobody. Nobody ever uses their English. Seriously. Sure.
Dan Frievalt:Especially in Wisconsin there.
Kimberley:Don't need it, don't you? No. No. So tell
Michael Mowbray:us a little bit about about this transition into wording why wire wire words? What Why? Why do words be important?
Unknown:Why do why words. So so you know, I was I was a photographer for 20 years, I was a wedding photographer primarily. And yeah, and one day I just didn't want to be anymore. And I did. You know, and I was like, okay, so yeah, what next? Like, what do I do? And one of my friends was like, well, you're always the person that people go to when they want to know how to say things like what they want to answer an angry email, or they want to know how to word, you know, word something on their pricing. And I was like, Oh, yeah, people do do that. Will they pay me for that? And she's like, Oh, no. And I was like, Well, let me try. And so I just started Googling. And I'm like, Oh, so now I'm a copywriter. And I literally went on Facebook and I'm like, So hey, I'm a copywriter now. And that's really how I did it. I had set a goal for myself to transition out of photography within 18 months, because I had weddings I had to finish up. So in 2014, I decided in 2016, I was done with weddings, and I just stopped taking them and told people I was something else and started writing things.
Michael Mowbray:Isn't that amazing how you can do that? Now?
Unknown:You can. And you can do it, especially now with, you know, with COVID and everything. Now, some, some people may need to do that. And, you know, have you asked me a year ago, if that was the smartest move I've ever made? I probably would have told you no, because I didn't really have a backup plan. But now, you know, nobody needs a backup plan. backup plans are just not even a thing anymore. So
Michael Mowbray:Well, sometimes in business, that it's good to not have a backup plan because that puts more emphasis on making whatever your primary thing is you're doing. You have to make it work, right.
Unknown:Yeah. I mean, I didn't have to learn things just because I knew how to write didn't mean that I knew how to do persuasive sales, copy and inbound marketing and things like that. So I did I did actually take a bunch of classes and courses and masterclasses and stuff so that I could learn that because just because you know how to string a few words together doesn't mean it sells things for people.
Michael Mowbray:Well, I can string a lot of good swear words together, but
Unknown:I can I can attest to that. You're real good. Especially.
Dan Frievalt:Especially when you like stub your toe.
Michael Mowbray:Oh, yeah.
Carl Caylor:It's when you step on the Legos. That's what does it good. Now?
Dan Frievalt:I don't have kids. I don't have Legos. So I just have beds that jump on me out of nowhere.
Carl Caylor:Legos for your dog dog adventure. Love it.
Dan Frievalt:Well, yeah, I have stepped on his like toys and then said similar to a Lego like that's like,
Unknown:son of
Carl Caylor:a stream together in a grammatical fashion. Hey, I have a question for ya. This is this is really kind of more curiosity than anything. But when you had said that, you just at one point said, I'm not gonna do weddings anymore. Did you say it during a wedding? Oh, yeah, of course. Oh.
Unknown:Well, actually, I'm probably not. And Michael Michael knows the in depth version of the story. But basically, I had a bride who tried to sue me because she was nine months pregnant at the time of her wedding, and there were all sorts of terrible things that happened before her wedding. Her wedding just did not go like she wanted it to at all. And the third time was the charm for the wedding. And it was in February during when we had one of those minus 40 degree days. And half of the people didn't show up to her wedding because family drama, and the big line that she said to me is that I used a wide lens to make everyone look to make it look like there was no one at her wedding. And then I managed to even make her shadow look fat. So she became shadow, that shadow that shadow kind of pushed me over the edge. I was I was thinking about it. And when that happened, I was like, and I'm out, you know? And it was also it was also you know, I mean, being photographer, you guys know this. It's a super physical job, you know? And yeah, my knees were going and I was starting to be the same age as my as my clients mom's you know, I you know, I remember walking into a wedding. And this woman's like, you look so familiar. And I was like, you do not look familiar at all. And we came to find out that we are we graduated from high school The same year, and I only had 93 people in my class. And I was like, if I look like that, then I got it. I gotta go. So it wasn't just that it just was a culmination of things. And it was, you know, knowing that since really, I mostly did weddings, I was like 95% weddings. So I just was like, I do not want to be 60 years old and chasing these these girls in these white dresses around like I needed an exit plan.
Michael Mowbray:Most brides be crazy.
Dan Frievalt:Speaking of, can we address Karl's incident after our podcast last week when we talked about Oh, no injuries and being in shape for weddings and things like that? And yeah, how many days later? Was it carnal? And this isn't the curry?
Carl Caylor:Yeah, how ironic was that? Hey, you know, most people that know me have have had class with me know that. I'm a big advocate of the 7200 millimeter lens. And because it narrows things down Of course, there you can find little nooks and crannies. However, every once in a while there's a time and a place for a wide angle lens. And I thought, because there was this great big storm brewing around us that the sky looked really cool and this soccer player kicking the ball the more thunderous and and others
Kimberley:around the thigh here are
Carl Caylor:no there was thunderous clouds. Going around to show that part of the story. It was magnificent. However, that means he wanted he wanted to be kicking the soccer ball. And to get him to kind of fill a frame. I was only maybe eight or nine feet from him. And when he haul up and kicked it, he might have slipped off his foot a little bit and square ups nailed the the camera right in the lampshade on my 24 to 70. And pretty much embedded the camera in the into my forehead.
Michael Mowbray:Give you a black guy.
Carl Caylor:I bled all over there all over their soccer field. But we got some pretty amazing say did you get the shot though? Right. And we did two more outfits after that.
Michael Mowbray:There was like, literally the our next podcast episode that's posting that. Well, this is after that's when they'll be able to hear this. Well anyway. Go back and listen to the podcast before this. Because it's all about
Carl Caylor:to add one thing to that story. And I felt so bad. Maybe the poor kid. I mean, he felt like he felt so bad about it. And he kept going oh my god. So I'm like I told you to kick the ball. The next day, Saturday, this is this happened on Friday, Saturday. He he was in Green Bay shopping. My daughter and my wife were in Green Bay shopping. They happen to run into each other places are 100 miles away from here, run into each other and my daughter knew him from school. You're behind her in school. He's like, see, you look what you did to my dad. And he was just like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. He's fine. Don't worry about it takes more than that shop is no joke.
Dan Frievalt:No. So they casually casually ran into each other or like they rewrite No. Yeah, correct. Okay, about the shopping mall. Oh, that's good. Okay, right over there. If they got an accident, then it'd be like that really be ironic.
Unknown:would be? Yes.
Carl Caylor:So I got a follow up question. Kimberly. If I actually looked at your at your website today, which is pretty cool. By the way, Carl came prepared today. I don't I did. So I just just so you just want to know if I find if I found a typo. Should I tell you about or not? Yeah, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
Unknown:I'm the first to admit, I'm first of all, like, I do typos every once in a while, you know, because I even say that in one of my things. It's like, if I get something new for you will be completely grammatically correct and free of typos. And I'm like, No, cuz I'm a human being. You know.
Michael Mowbray:We once we once ran an ad when I worked at the ad agency, we were looking for a proofreader. And we purposely, we, first of all, the title of the ad was proofreader. The ad we told we asked people to find all the mistakes and correct them. Admit it back. Yeah. So in the in the Wisconsin State Journal looking for a proofreader.
Dan Frievalt:I can wrote that ad for you.
Michael Mowbray:easily without even thinking, because it's really important in especially in advertising, because you don't want to misspell public relations as we've done before, too. And leave the Yeah, yeah, yeah, you get weird applications for that. Anyway. Um, what is, in your opinion? What is the major or the biggest mistake that most photographers make when it comes to using language?
Dan Frievalt:Ah, you took my question?
Unknown:Oh, when using Legos. So when writing things copy, that's your speaking, you know, right. Okay. Yeah. I think probably the biggest thing for them is they have this real hang up on being salesy. You know, that's really hard for them. And it is for most people, but I think it's even harder for creatives, because it's so personal. And they want people to hire them and like them because of the work that they do. And my job is to shatter those dreams, and tell them that, you know, part of your job is sales, whether or not you're doing it an in person sales session, or on your website, part of your job is to ask people to let you work with them. And you know, and then and then you've got SEO in the mix. So there's all these different elements to it. And they tend to really want to take out all the parts where they're appealing to people to work with them. And that's something that you know, eventually they get there and sometimes it just as changing the tone of the language from something a little less moral to something a little more casual. Sometimes that works. But that is that is probably the one thing I bought up against the most
Michael Mowbray:and you Using the passive voice,
Unknown:and I am fine with the passive voice. I don't know why that's a role. Fine. I have nothing disabled on grammerly. I'm like, stop it with the passive voice, you know?
Michael Mowbray:What about Oxford commas? I mean, we here's your answer to this is whether or not we can stay friends. Are you for? Or are you again? The Oxford comma?
Unknown:I know.
Kimberley:I am for
Unknown:you and I are the same age. That's because we're
Dan Frievalt:dinosaurs. I'm not sure what that means. I did about what about the double space after a period?
Unknown:Oh, no happened that, you know, literally, I have every document I write I have a command to go and look for that. Because I cannot. I can't, I can't. I can't quit it. I can't. And so now I'm just it's just become part of my process that I just go through and take it out. Because I literally had an editor say to me, I will fire you submit one more document with double spacing. And so yeah, it's
Michael Mowbray:back to that do expect the college where you had to fill like four pages on an essay is like, oh, double. Yeah, after the
Unknown:word processor. Yeah, I mean, with typewriter, you had to double space. So yeah, yeah, he tried to beat 40 years out of me here. So, you know, but yeah, it's it every time I bring it up. It's so funny to see people argue about it on Facebook or whatever. And it's always, it's always like, if you're over 50 you definitely like the double space. You know,
Michael Mowbray:I've managed to train myself to not do it. So I don't do it anymore. just magically happen. See?
Carl Caylor:No, but here's the thing. Here's the problem with that. If you are like if you hit double tap, tap your space space, it puts the period there for you. If you don't tap tap, it doesn't so which way is it? You know, make it one way or the other. But don't make our phones work. Tap Tap? Yeah, give me a period.
Unknown:See, I know I don't worry about anything on a phone. That's that's fine, anyhow. No, no. I used to be really particular about that capitalizing everything. And then finally one day I was like, You just lost your damn mind. You need to just leave let that go. You know, life's too short.
Michael Mowbray:I still punctuate all my texts. I'm sorry.
Dan Frievalt:I mean, I don't know it's either that or just straight gifts. You know, one or the other. Like, I see.
Michael Mowbray:I fit I think I'm, I'm turning Egyptian. I speak only an hiral hieroglyphs.
Carl Caylor:hieroglyphics.
Unknown:You are your gifts, you are gifted, you're gifted at the gift you give to that the gift.
Carl Caylor:He's quick. He's very quick. He's quick on the draw with gifts.
Dan Frievalt:So along the tangent of taboo or questions or hit you up with things that you feel are right to wrong, or maybe not right or wrong. But okay, let's talk about BIOS. And oh, yeah, like your, your thoughts on especially photographer buyers buyers because we're in the photographer. space. So yeah, I saw you post something on this recently. And so that's what kind of triggered this question, I guess.
Unknown:Is it the one where I said that if I was an alien and came down to the planet Earth and read 50 photographers websites and didn't know what a photographer was, all I would be able to tell you is that they love light and coffee and yoga. Yes.
Dan Frievalt:It wasn't done in depth. I like this better. But yeah, yeah, please stop with the coffee and yoga or something along those Yeah. wide open.
Unknown:Yeah. And, and and do you love photography? Since you picked up a camera at age, you know, insert 612 nine, whatever. Yeah, and you know, and it's that that is mostly just because I mean, BIOS are really hard. They are. And it's even worse when you're writing about yourself. Of all the things that I write BIOS are the hardest, because even so now they have to be shorter than they ever were. They have to be relatable. And we all when we don't know what to say go to Whatever's easiest. And whatever is true, right? I mean, I believe all those photographers do love light and coffee and yoga. But the problem is, so does every other photographer in the state of Wisconsin. So if someone's coming into your website, and they're reading these BIOS, and they all sound the same, well, who are you going to pick? I mean, I would pick the person who sounded most interesting, because in a sea of photographers, unless you're unless you're really crappy photographer, they are going to see you know, a different work but it's all going to be about the same if they're looking in a certain price range. One would hope
Kimberley:the quality of photographs and looking
Unknown:at are about the same, right, you know? So that's the thing then then what's the qualifier? You know, what's the qualifier? What What else are they going to look for? They're gonna look for someone who sounds like, they're cool to hang out with, right, but they have common interests and photographers also tend to start at the beginning of the story. Like, you know, like, you know, in my bio, I talk a little bit about how I grew up. I literally grew up in weddings. I started out as a waitress in a country club, you know, at weddings. And I go on from there, but sounds like a country club.
Kimberley:sassy, sassy chicken. Always.
Carl Caylor:Yeah. I was trying to think of the saucy chicken I will always get deep fried stuff.
Unknown:Yeah, I gotta get
Kimberley:roasted.
Michael Mowbray:In pictures of milk on the table, too.
Unknown:Yeah, down here, down here at the Milwaukee we get the saucy chicken and beef tips saying Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's a matter of, you know, finding the right balance and saying, telling me things that are interesting about you that don't sound like everybody else. And that that is hard. Because you do have similar likes and dislikes. But you have to look at it from kind of like a client's point of view, and about you, is about you. But it's more about the relationship of working with the client, like what they're going to get when they work with you. So it's kind of a delicate balance between that and revealing yourself to being an interesting human being. Right, well, so
Carl Caylor:Kimberly, how do I how do you do that? When you don't really know? I mean, how do you write a bio for somebody else? And what questions do you ask them to get you started? I mean, what do I have to give?
Unknown:So it starts with a discovery form. And I have a bunch of questions on there that I asked, just to kind of uncover, you know, what your like, what you what you like, what you what you don't like, who you like working with, who you don't like working with. And I have clients fill that out. If they don't fill it out, where it's pretty meaty, I will send it back and be like, try harder, you know, I mean, I need more information. And then we have, we actually have a zoom call. And it usually takes about 45 minutes to an hour, where I dig into their questions, ask them more questions, get them to talk about themselves a little bit more. In between the discovery call and the zoom call, I go I go deep, I go searching through their profiles. I read all the comments people say, I go into, you know, any little tiny bit of information I can mine on them on the internet, I find out because I can weave that into the questions. Sometimes they they realize I do it. Most of the time they don't. And they just start answering my question. Reviews are super revealing to me. So if they're if they're one of the few people who actually asked for reviews, and has testimonials, I can get a really good idea of how they work and ask them more questions about that. And then we talk a little bit about the tone, you know, how formal Do you want it to be? How irreverent Do you want it to be like who are your clients, if you're working with the Country Club, set, your bio is going to sound very different if you're, you know, wimzie in light doing outdoor barn weddings, so we have to be sure that it matches that and a lot of people get very hung up on that as well. Like they really they you know, I'll read their I'll read their bio, and I'll be like, this is not at all like what you do. Well, and they think well, and or they'll write it in, you know, they will write it in the first person. Like, you know, the Michael Mowbray is an award winning, you know, and I'm like, Where did that come from? Like, why are you this is not LinkedIn. So why are you writing like that? You just like the award winning thing? Yes, actually.
Kimberley:Any minute now.
Michael Mowbray:I don't even know where it is right now.
Dan Frievalt:Here's my award.
Michael Mowbray:Girl you'll like this. I got like my fujis and my codecs over here. You can see they're off camera. They're holding up my my Sonics phone.
Carl Caylor:Yeah. Hey, wait a minute. I just occurred to me. Wait, we don't know what you're drinking. Kimberly. What are you drinking?
Unknown:Oh, I have right here. I have a Russian Margarita. Oh, this would be awesome. A child of the 70s. So this would be a vodka fresca, because that's what. It's a Russian Margarita.
Carl Caylor:That's Russian.
Unknown:That's what my mother calls it. Oh, at least it's at least it's Tito's, though. So it's Hi.
Michael Mowbray:Nice. Actually, I I didn't say what I'm having. I'm having some aberfeldie scotch. It's a 12 year old Island single malt Scotch. Huh. First off, that is pretty good. Huh? doesn't suck on our local liquor store. We got we got a new one like last year and big one. And they have I swear, it's probably 50 different types of scotch in there. Usually you go into a liquor store and Wisconsin is like they got Johnnie Walker red Johnnie Walker black, maybe Glenfiddich. These guys had like, mind blowing,
Unknown:well, then I didn't even need to go to Scotland to get you that that was no, that was lovely. I appreciated
Michael Mowbray:that. But yeah, I went the other day and walked out. $400 later. Oops.
Carl Caylor:I made a nice photograph, though. I just gotta say,
Michael Mowbray:I got some wine too.
Dan Frievalt:Is that why I got an email about the MoLight? sale?
Unknown:You need to sell some flashes.
Dan Frievalt:I need to pay my liquor bill.
Michael Mowbray:Amex is I plan to photograph all those bottles? So there you go.
Carl Caylor:lead in that's a good lead into my next question, actually, is when, when we as photographers are going to do a sale? What? What? What kind of work? I mean, what, what do you do for that? I mean, you do write things for a sale?
Unknown:Sure. Usually, that's an email series, one email is not going to get you much. It's also going to depend on how warm your list is, if you haven't been emailing your lists consistently. Your open rate isn't going to be as good is if you've been consistently sending good
Dan Frievalt:backup backup we have to talk to about people actually starting a list and
Kimberley:they forget, like professionals.
Carl Caylor:What's that? Why, why?
Dan Frievalt:What what we should explain what a list is first, before we get carried away. I do
Carl Caylor:have a check off. So I know what I did for
Kimberley:Yeah.
Michael Mowbray:I've got I've got a list, but I put people on it.
Unknown:And you don't worry, be honest. Yes. You don't get the poop emoji list.
Carl Caylor:No, it's it. It is a different letter. Yeah,
Dan Frievalt:no, it's called the rose the rose list. That's what success word calls it. You you label clients that are kind of troublesome though you give him a rose label? Because it sounds nice. But it's the thorn in your side? Oh,
Unknown:God. Yeah. So we have a good, I mean, you're right there. Yeah, there you guys have lists. But you know, other photographers may not have lists, they may have more like client lists, where you guys do more of education part. So, you know, it would depend on who exactly you're writing to. But usually one email shot off into the ether is not gonna not gonna get you a whole lot. You have to have a relationship with the people you're emailing, you have to give them good content, you have to have given them something for free, because hashtag photographers, and then you have to appeal to just to sell to them, you have to have, you know, it's it's a reciprocal relationship. It's the giving back. It's the 80% giving in the 20% selling that they that I always advise. It's the same when you're writing a sales email, and not putting the word sale in the subject line, because that'll get you flagged for spam. And people will click
Michael Mowbray:right off unless you're trying to sell flashes to pay for your scotch bill.
Unknown:Now, if you put that in the subject line, Daddy needs a daddy needs this guy. I think I would want to see you. I want to see you AB test that
Carl Caylor:tension. I swear.
Michael Mowbray:I've got something coming up in about two weeks. I may be testing, okay. And by the way, people who don't understand what a B testing is, by the way, make notes when you listen to our podcasts and go look it up. Because we ain't your damn Google. Anyway.
Carl Caylor:Write that down.
Michael Mowbray:AV testing is you you create one headline and a second alternative headline, and you send it to each one to half of your list and see which one pulls better. And you'll learn about the behavior habits of your list and how you need to tailor copy that sells to them. There you go.
Unknown:Exactly. Just
Dan Frievalt:like science man, Mr. Moe, but you can also do with Facebook ads as well have a be testing them, like graphics, creative wording works best. And yeah, there's a lot that goes into it. And, you know, we talked a while back about outsourcing and I am not good with my words, if you've listened to this podcast more than 15 minutes, you will know that we haven't hit a word yet always correcting me or helping me with my words. And so I actually hired Kimberly a few times to write things for me because it is not my strong point. So I always say hire for your weaknesses. And it is a great experience. And oh, Carl, you asked earlier like, Well, you know, what, how does that work? And it is great working with Kimberly, where you we did a zoom call, or it's like, here's kind of what I'm thinking. And if you know me as a creative person, the most creative people, it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, like, ideas are firing, and things are firing all over. So it's like, okay, wrangle this in. And so it's not only just wording, it's like wrangling and get your message clear. Because someone else reading this, it knows nothing about you needs a clear message, you know, with words, but also with the message. So, yeah, highly recommend, if you
Unknown:that is hard, it's it. It's hard. It's really hard to take your own thoughts. And I mean, it's so much nicer when someone else does that for you.
Carl Caylor:Well, it's nice that you've been in the industry, too. I mean, that's, I mean, especially by for photography. That's huge. Yeah. I mean, I've worked with other marketing people that they don't have a clue what we do, and it's a struggle.
Michael Mowbray:Yeah, they don't.
Unknown:Yeah, and I was taking a little bit of a risk when I did that, because I thought, who I'm really niching down, you know, but I that was quickly ameliorated. When I, when I first started, I pretty much would write for anybody, you know, and I ended up reading blogs about mold. And I had to write 16 blogs a month about mold, and every single one of them had to be different
Carl Caylor:to the spores. Oh, sorry.
Unknown:For and I did that for I don't know, maybe a year and a half my gosh, because it was like it was it wasn't that hard. I could write them. I could bang them out in like, 15 minutes, you know. And finally, one day, I'm like, I just I can't write about mold anymore. And I thought I you know, what could be worse?
Michael Mowbray:Right. 70 blogs about mold. I just did the math.
Kimberley:Yes, you are. Right.
Carl Caylor:I'm just saying.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. I know a lot about mold. Yeah. Yeah. So so that's when I decided, well, I'm just going to niche down because I know a button and I know the industry. And then I expanded it beyond photographers so I do have a pretty big clientele that is also like wedding planners and a lot of wedding planners. Some DJs a couple florists. So anything that's kind of in the wedding sphere I feel comfortable with and you know, even photography that I didn't do a lot of like goodwill, I think I did one boudoir session and I went so you know,
Michael Mowbray:but I do it goes back on.
Dan Frievalt:So can you Yeah, you may have answered a different debate we've had on this this podcast in the past and is it niche or niche? How do
Unknown:I say niche niche?
Dan Frievalt:I've tried to switch to saying nice, but it's it's, you know? It's like teaching my grandmother it's a unthaw, you know.
Unknown:Thought is totally a word. I did not honestly the first time someone challenged me on that. I was like, that's totally a word. And then I found out No, that's just
Carl Caylor:like you can really get in trouble with that.
Michael Mowbray:Yeah, come on, either fight, or doesn't flam
Kimberley:words are
Dan Frievalt:good stuff.
Michael Mowbray:So I tell people where to get a confession. Oh, go ahead. No, no, no. You go.
Carl Caylor:My father just so you know, my dad is an English teacher. So I grew up Ah, with this. And it's interesting because I can't spell where the crap. I mean, I understand. It's kind of beat into me over the years. But I cannot for the life of me spell. And so where's it like, do with it? Cuz I can't be the only one.
Unknown:So, no, I'm not a terrifically great speller. But
Carl Caylor:even even grammar. How do you deal with I mean, most photographers, like you said are creatives and yeah, there's a whole whole different world in the English language, as far as creativity, and how hard is it to deal with that? That disconnect?
Unknown:It depends, you know, I am very much a proponent of you're not trying to win a Pulitzer here, right? At least not for your words, yet. I mean, there's a difference between being grammatically correct. And getting your point across and simple and direct wins out every time over AP grammar. You know, obviously, if it's horrifically bad if it's really a huge full pot, no, but it's okay to use common words instead of fancy words. And there's very few photographers who sites, I'll look at that, I'll be like, Oh, this is just fat, you know, it may not be particularly creative, it may be redundant, it may be kind of boring. But most people have at least a concept of what to what to write. But again, they usually are kind of missing that call to action. You know, they don't, they don't follow all the way through, they just sort of word vomit, and then just back away from it and think, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. You know, I want to do everything.
Dan Frievalt:Well, you bring up a lot of good points, because you know, as creatives and photographers, we we feel like, Oh, I want to get my website rolling. And the first thing that comes to mind is imagery, like I need strong imagery and strong imagery, but following it through with the details of wording and call to action and all those things will, you know, just take it and SEO, as you mentioned, will just take it to the next level. And it's one thing I think we as creators, kind of overlook, or don't put as much emphasis on?
Unknown:Yeah, well, if Imagine you're, you know, Suzy, whoever looking for a photographer, and you got two sites pulled up. And they're both great photographers, as far as you can tell. And one's got pretty good words, and one's got great words, the great words is going to get is going to get the thing if they're both kind of great photos and kind of crappy words. Where do you think that person is going to go next? Where do you think their minds gonna glitter one
Michael Mowbray:the most? Well,
Unknown:they're gonna choose whoever is cheaper. Because they don't, they don't see they don't see any difference, right? They say good photos. They see average words, right? This one's$500. Cheaper. Ah, so I get it. So if your words, your words, don't put your price on your website. I see what you're saying.
Kimberley:That's a man. That actually isn't too bad.
Unknown:So what
Carl Caylor:I got one thing again,
Michael Mowbray:yeah, well, that's that's actually one of the things I'm going to be doing in the kind of the offseason is I just rebuilt my website and relaunched it month and a half ago or so. But it was seriously word vomit. I mean, a halfway decent writer. So I was like, but I was writing it as I was building it. So I got to go back and go through it all and go, whoo, whoo, whoo. But yeah, that's something everybody should be doing in the offseasons go through all your marketing communications. Yeah, go through your website, go through everything on your Facebook page, wherever and refine it, and re hone it and, and make it better make it more gooder. So it's the most, most
Unknown:photographers are really great about updating, updating their images, but they tend to not do it with their word, right pricing. And you should be doing it just about as up because especially now, I mean, I'm sure you have different offerings than you had six months ago, at least you should, you know, we've all had to pivot and find other things to offer. So go back through, add things in take out what doesn't apply anymore. You know, talk about being socially distance, whatever you have to do to bring your website up to date, otherwise, it's gonna look,
Michael Mowbray:that's that's a good point. Do you have for folks who are listening? Do you have a stated COVID-19 policy on your website? Or how you're handling COVID-19?
Unknown:I do not because I
Michael Mowbray:for people listening. You can answer personally cuz you're a person and you're here. So
Unknown:I don't because I work remotely. You know, I don't ever see people but I have written a lot of statements for people and an awful lot of blogs about it about micro weddings, and you know, and COVID you know, if you want something for your contract, then you need to go to like a lawyer but but yeah, you should have you absolutely should have like how do you if you're a newborn photographer, heck yeah. I'm gonna want to know how you
Michael Mowbray:always wondered how they could handle the camera. They don't even have hand eye coordination yet?
Unknown:No, not at all. Yeah.
Kimberley:posable you totally got me there. Wow. Wow, I cannot believe I fell for that happened during
Carl Caylor:that Russian lady. lately. We haven't had a reference drink yet. Oh
Dan Frievalt:wow, we talked about journey, I mean
Kimberley:housing journey.
Michael Mowbray:Alright, so what one thing we'd like to do. It's a tradition here at the photo happy hour. Whenever we have a guest we play word association. You're our second guest. So I guess it is a tradition now.
Kimberley:Southern
Michael Mowbray:with Dan McClanahan, and it was incredible.
Dan Frievalt:Oh, we got,
Michael Mowbray:but I'm gonna throw words at you. Okay, and just tell us you know, tell us what it means. unicorn. Okay. Very much so. And I actually I have to say, I have shadow on my list.
Kimberley:You're gonna get me to tell that story.
Michael Mowbray:Absolutely. I still remember that. Made my shadow look fat. That sounds like that sounds like a mama joke. Your mama so fat. Her shadows even fat?
Unknown:Yeah, except she used it for her face.
Michael Mowbray:Buddy. Okay. Wow. You talked a lot about grammar. Let's talk about grammar.
Kimberley:grandpere you got nothing. Is that? Is that an issue? I don't know.
Michael Mowbray:My grammar and my grandpa. I mean, then you know
Dan Frievalt:that. That's like the more so worse dad jokes, I think.
Carl Caylor:Yeah, that's pretty good. Dan. Roll laughing though. I'm just saying that's true.
Michael Mowbray:About Key West.
Unknown:Oh, I love it there.
Michael Mowbray:What do you love about Key West
Unknown:Move, move. What do I love Key West. It's just like, it's another world. It's not like Florida. It's like, it's like the tropics, except not as far to go. So I just love the vibe there.
Michael Mowbray:have chickens in the streets?
Dan Frievalt:Just like they do have chickens. How about gazebo?
Unknown:Ah,
Kimberley:no,
Carl Caylor:no, right? Just say no. No, no aliens.
Unknown:Seriously, what is it? The thing is ebos. Why do people write so much? actly? What?
Carl Caylor:Right? You see right through there transparent?
Unknown:Yeah, one of the girls in a group that we're in, you know, knows very well. We all know very well in our group about how much we don't like gazebos. But her heard the mother of the bride kept calling it a desirable dance.
Kimberley:That makes right and then it's it's right. I mean, if you need a picture, like isabeau
Carl Caylor:bizzabo
Michael Mowbray:right along the lines with that gelato bar.
Unknown:Yes, I won't pay for it. That's
Kimberley:okay. So
Unknown:this was probably near again, near the point where I probably should have been thinking about my exit from weddings. I had a client who was talked to her met with them. They were fantastic. I love them. I really wanted them to hire me. And she called me a couple days later, and she's like, we really want to hire you. But I have a question. So okay, she goes, we really want to have a gelato bar at our wedding because I'm Italian and blah, blah, blah. And this is when the whole this whole gelato thing started. I said, Oh, that sounds really cool. Yeah, I think she was gonna ask me like, well, how would How would you take photos to the glass and blah, blah, blah. And she said, so I'm wondering. She said, The only problem is the gelato bar cost $250 to rent. So I'm wondering if you could take that off the package if you would be willing to go down $250 and literally without like, it was like, came out of my mouth. Didn't think I said, I'm sorry. Are you asking me to pay for your gelato bar?
Carl Caylor:Exactly.
Unknown:She is. It was not the right thing to say. But it felt really
Michael Mowbray:that you had to say it
Kimberley:felt real good.
Dan Frievalt:But think of the exposure she didn't. I guess
Carl Caylor:they'll tell all their friends. Yeah,
Kimberley:gelato bar.
Michael Mowbray:It's all how you position it because then you could go out there and say, free gelato bar with every wedding package.
Unknown:I used to this life lesson later in my group saying, you know, an appropriate answer would have been I'm sorry, I can't do that. But I would have thrown in something that cost me very little value, you know, a parent album or you know, something cheap like that, or give her an extra hour of the day or throne or a couple extra files or whatever. But at that point, I was just I was disengaged enough for to say that I was not going to pay for her gelato bar. Love it. cautionary tale cautionary tale, my friends. If you start saying that to your clients, you might want to think about transitioning out.
Carl Caylor:Oh, man, that could be a whole webinar. I mean, a whole podcast. thought process is things you want to say. But really shouldn't.
Kimberley:That would entertain me. That would be all right.
Carl Caylor:This one time I wanted to say. But I really said, Yeah,
Michael Mowbray:you know, this is total aside, and I sent I sent this to you guys earlier today. But we are in the top 12% of all podcasts on buzzsprout, which is one of the biggest podcast, wow publishers out there. So that kind of blew me away. podcasts out there.
Dan Frievalt:I was just thinking, it's kind of like, you know, hey, I'm in the top 10 of my class and I, you know, went to a small school, it was like 20 people in my class.
Kimberley:Wow.
Unknown:So
Carl Caylor:it's still 12% dang it.
Michael Mowbray:So what are the things, photographers or other people in related industries know about the words they use any tips you can give them?
Unknown:Sure. Probably one of the easiest way to get free words, is to ask for testimonials from your clients. They are gold. And people don't ask for them enough. They, you know, there's lots of hang ups about them. A lot of people feel like, Well, why would I put that on my website or use it on social media because of course, I'm only going to show the good things, but people know that they're not looking for it when they see when when a potential client sees a testimonial, what they're looking for is an answer to their problem. So if you have a testimonial, where someone says, on my wedding day, my formal portraits went so fast, she handled it so great. You know, we got to we got to enjoy our cocktail hour, if that's something a potential bride is worried about, or her mother has expressed to her or whatever. You just answered that question. Because it wasn't you saying Don't worry, don't worry, I'll take care of that it was another client saying that. So it's great for backing up things on your website, you can repurpose them on social media. And you know, I just think there, if you're struggling for words, the first place you should go is with clients that you've worked with eat that love you, and that you've had a great experience of because it only makes sense that cool people know cool people, right? So if you have a bride, that's super fun to work with, you can fairly bad. I'm not gonna say totally, but then her friends are going to have a similar personality as her. So I think everyone should build it into their, their process, you know, it should be kind of the last touch, make it easy for them, send them direct links to Facebook or Google or whatever, and just say, you know what, if you enjoyed working with me, I could just say a few nice things here on my site. 80% of people will do it, the other 20% don't do it either. Because they don't want to, or they forget, they put it off and they know they're embarrassed. But if you would, or they would anyway. Anyway, right? So I just think it's I think it's a little piece that people miss out on because it can be that little bit of social proof and again, it's it's free copy man, it's like all the best stuff.
Michael Mowbray:So if people need help word of tising where should they go?
Unknown:Well if you want to if you want me to write your words you can go to red curl creative calm. That's my done for you service where I will write for you for monies. I also have a course called write better words. And you can if you type that into Facebook, look for write better words with Kim Anderson. You'll find me I have a free group and then there's also a paid group. So if like you're the kind of like, DIY HGTV kind of person who likes who likes to take courses and learn how to do things. I have one awesome too. So read curl. That's what the K right?
Carl Caylor:Yeah, CH h aside Yeah.
Kimberley:And z at the
Michael Mowbray:rug, curl creative. Just want to make sure everybody got that rug curl creative. So anybody got parting shots?
Carl Caylor:Hey, I have one question from Note, radio versus website versus newspaper any difference?
Unknown:Yes, I am not a radio person. So when someone comes to me and they need radio copy, I send them to someone who specializes in that because it is so different, like my friend, Michael Mowbray, it is such a different medium, because you're not only dealing with I mean, there's timing involved, right? Like a website is just like, you know, it's static. But when it comes to anything like that newspaper, I don't do a ton with newspaper either other than press releases, some people still do those. That's mostly my corporate kind of clients. They do press releases. So if I'm writing for Marcus Corporation, or something, they'll do it. But But yeah, they're very different. And even when people come to me, and they want me to write, like, you know, Facebook ads, I'll do it. But it's like, that's not my expertise. So while I'm happy to write the copy for them, I tell them, you need to take this to an ad expert, you know, who knows what they're doing in terms of putting it out into the universe? Because it's sort of like, you know, everyone thinks you're your photographer, you have a camera, you can do product photography. Well, that's not true. Right? You know. So I had to learn that early on to say no to things that I'm like, I don't know a thing about this. And also, I don't really want to learn.
Carl Caylor:What's your favorite thing to do? Then? What do you what do you want people to call you to do?
Unknown:I really like BIOS, because they are so challenging. And there's nothing more gratifying when I get one, right, especially for someone who has a really hard time writing about themselves, even though they take me the longest, because they I really have to put a lot of thought into them. And they often have rewrites. So those are probably my favorites. I like doing sales copy quite a lot. If if the product is, you know, interesting in the person is, is passionate about what they do. And website copy, I enjoy that as well. You know, digging in and kind of finding the right voice. Probably, that's what it all comes back to for me is if I can capture my client's voice for them, especially if they have trouble doing that themselves. That's really exciting. Cool.
Michael Mowbray:Awesome. Thanks for joining us. We have a sponsor every week. And this week's sponsor is circumcision ale from shmaltz brewing in New York City. Just because it's in bad taste doesn't mean it tastes bad. circum session ale it's a cut above the rest.
Unknown:Oh. Wow. You see
Carl Caylor:they're all real. Wow. Michael, I'm not gonna drink
Kimberley:all right.
Unknown:craps happy writer. Wow.
Michael Mowbray:I don't know that was a big seller. Somebody should just nip that in the bud. Oh, anyway. Oh, yeah. For this week. And cheers to you guys. Cheers. Cheers.
Unknown:Cheers. Thanks, guys. Fun. Last call.
Michael Mowbray:You've been listening to the photo happy hour podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe button to not miss a single action packed episode. And join our photo happy hour Facebook group where we'll post links to the stuff we all talk about. You can find my mo like gear online at www dot gomo life.com. That's geo mo Li gh t.com You can find the Facebook page under MoLight store and I also run the Godox flash help group on Facebook. You can find Dan SR on loc website at www dot seniors unlocked.com that's seniors with an S at the end unlocked.com and the Facebook group under seniors unlocked and you can find Carl's coaching corner@www.cc photo coach comm cc photo coach.com Till next time, cheers to you.
Liam:I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you want me to pay you to subscribe, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career skills that make me a nightmare for people like you and if you subscribe now, that will be the end of it. I will not look for you. I will not pursue you. But if you don't I will look for you. I will find you and I will annoy you